Except that the author is pointing towards the truth that we who are the redeemed were placed into that position by God himself, due to his election of His by his own free will, not based upon faith in jesus first!
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A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed
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Except that the author is pointing towards the truth that we who are the redeemed were placed into that position by God himself, due to his election of His by his own free will, not based upon faith in jesus first!
Here is what John said, quoting the words of Jesus:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
If you read Romans 4:1-5, you will find that faith is not a work, but placed in opposition to works.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--The teaching here is that salvation is by faith and faith alone, and that faith can in no way be considered a work. Therefore what do you mean when you say "salvation is by one's own merits"?
Who said it was?
Where do you get that idea from?
Do you even believe in sola fide?
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.[Jn 1:12,13]
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.[Rom. 9:16]
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.[Eph. 2:8,9]
God, when He saves, needs no permission. He knows what He is doing; no need for us to get in His way.
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.[Rom. 9:16]
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.[Eph. 2:8,9]
God, when He saves, needs no permission. He knows what He is doing; no need for us to get in His way.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Euclid & Justification
When God created man He created a rational, moral being in His image and likeness.
Since the fall of man through Adam’s transgression, man has not lost his ability to reason, but he has lost his moral compass.
Thus, man often comes to erroneous, irrational conclusions as a result of an unholy, sinful point of view.
For example, many ‘brilliant’ minds conclude there is no God, finding many ‘substantial reasons’ as to why this is so.
The many common sense answers along with the many verifiable proofs by which Christians oppose their naysayers’ presuppositions and objections the Atheists dismiss as irrelevant, insubstantial and just plain foolish.
In other words, the evidence be damned. A closed mind will remain shut, no matter what facts are presented. No matter how ‘brilliant’ the mind.
Similarly, there are those on this board who are unwilling to allow the light of truth into their dark, closed minds: the Scriptural evidence be damned.
Therefore, I write the following to those whose minds are supple, still able to weigh the facts and come to a logical, unbiased conclusion.
Things which equal the same thing also equal one another.
This axiom is from Euclid’s Elements, Book 1, Common Notions.
For example, if a triangle equals a rectangle, and the rectangle equals a square, then the triangle equals the square.
Now let’s apply this universal principle to the biblical doctrine of Justification.
The Bible clearly states we are:
Justified by faith (Romans 5:1)
Justified by His blood (Romans 5:9)
Justified by His grace (Romans 3:24)
We can use the Euclidian principle to discover yet another way to prove faith is from God.
No orthodox Christian will deny that grace is all of God.
Man has no grace to give.
Neither will he deny that Christ’s shedding His blood was wholly an act of grace.
We may then conclude:
Justification by His grace = Justification by His blood.
Those who were justified by His grace were also justified by His blood.
Christ’s blood is equivalent to His grace since both justify.
Our Pelagian and Arminian friends insist faith is not the gift of God to men.
They are adamant faith is attributed to man’s good use of his will.
But the Euclidian principle will not allow for such an interpretation.
Men who are justified by faith cannot but claim that their faith was the result of grace based on Christ’s redemptive blood.
For justification cannot be two parts the work of God and one part the work of man: God providing the grace and blood, man providing the faith.
Otherwise we are not saved by grace alone, but are saved by the grace of God + man’s contribution of faith.
Since faith, blood and grace each equal justification, they are equal to each other.
And since both the blood and grace are from God, our faith must also be from God.
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:24 ESV)
Justification is the gift of God.
Therefore, our faith is the gift of God.
If not, then Romans 3:24 should be re-written to say “justified by his grace as a gift, plus faith as our gift…….”
The same axiom holds true when we are justified by works. (James 2:24)
Our works are the effect of God’s predestined grace in our lives:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:10)
Our works are of God, as is our justification of God.
Our faith is of God, as is our justification of God.
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace (Romans 4:16 ESV)
May the light of God’s grace and truth in Jesus Christ shine brightly in the eyes of the reader’s understanding. Amen.
When God created man He created a rational, moral being in His image and likeness.
Since the fall of man through Adam’s transgression, man has not lost his ability to reason, but he has lost his moral compass.
Thus, man often comes to erroneous, irrational conclusions as a result of an unholy, sinful point of view.
For example, many ‘brilliant’ minds conclude there is no God, finding many ‘substantial reasons’ as to why this is so.
The many common sense answers along with the many verifiable proofs by which Christians oppose their naysayers’ presuppositions and objections the Atheists dismiss as irrelevant, insubstantial and just plain foolish.
In other words, the evidence be damned. A closed mind will remain shut, no matter what facts are presented. No matter how ‘brilliant’ the mind.
Similarly, there are those on this board who are unwilling to allow the light of truth into their dark, closed minds: the Scriptural evidence be damned.
Therefore, I write the following to those whose minds are supple, still able to weigh the facts and come to a logical, unbiased conclusion.
Things which equal the same thing also equal one another.
This axiom is from Euclid’s Elements, Book 1, Common Notions.
For example, if a triangle equals a rectangle, and the rectangle equals a square, then the triangle equals the square.
Now let’s apply this universal principle to the biblical doctrine of Justification.
The Bible clearly states we are:
Justified by faith (Romans 5:1)
Justified by His blood (Romans 5:9)
Justified by His grace (Romans 3:24)
We can use the Euclidian principle to discover yet another way to prove faith is from God.
No orthodox Christian will deny that grace is all of God.
Man has no grace to give.
Neither will he deny that Christ’s shedding His blood was wholly an act of grace.
We may then conclude:
Justification by His grace = Justification by His blood.
Those who were justified by His grace were also justified by His blood.
Christ’s blood is equivalent to His grace since both justify.
Our Pelagian and Arminian friends insist faith is not the gift of God to men.
They are adamant faith is attributed to man’s good use of his will.
But the Euclidian principle will not allow for such an interpretation.
Men who are justified by faith cannot but claim that their faith was the result of grace based on Christ’s redemptive blood.
For justification cannot be two parts the work of God and one part the work of man: God providing the grace and blood, man providing the faith.
Otherwise we are not saved by grace alone, but are saved by the grace of God + man’s contribution of faith.
Since faith, blood and grace each equal justification, they are equal to each other.
And since both the blood and grace are from God, our faith must also be from God.
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:24 ESV)
Justification is the gift of God.
Therefore, our faith is the gift of God.
If not, then Romans 3:24 should be re-written to say “justified by his grace as a gift, plus faith as our gift…….”
The same axiom holds true when we are justified by works. (James 2:24)
Our works are the effect of God’s predestined grace in our lives:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:10)
Our works are of God, as is our justification of God.
Our faith is of God, as is our justification of God.
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace (Romans 4:16 ESV)
May the light of God’s grace and truth in Jesus Christ shine brightly in the eyes of the reader’s understanding. Amen.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
What is the man's motive for giving the good gift? Scripture is clear when it says " all our righteousness is as filthy rags".
I do not contend a dead sinner cannot physically do nothing, but that they cannot spiritually do anything good. There is a difference. "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Psalm 14:3). I suppose you are going to tell me here that the "none" in this verse does not mean "none"?
Again, you must not understand what it means to believe in the doctrine of total depravity, being spiritually dead does not mean you can't feel physical pain. Yes, he could feel the flames of Hell in that he still had a spirit that was suffering the torment of eternal damnation. This has nothing to do with if someone who is spiritually being dead in sin can perform spiritual good.
Only those who are already "of God" hear Jesus and the prophets. Those that are not "of God" will not hear Jesus or the prophets. Jesus makes this clear, "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47)
You do too contradict the verses that says "Salvation is of the Lord". Do you agree that regeneration is a phase of salvation? If so, how can salvation be "of the Lord if" man causes there own regeneration by their faith? This is what you teach isn't is? You may counter that you do not believe faith is a work, but you can't get around the fact that ultimately if faith causes regeneration and man can lay claim to generating their own faith, that it is not a gift of God, then man, not God, is the cause of their own regeneration, thus salvation is not "of the Lord" per your teaching.
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savedbymercy
New Member
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother SavedByMercy,
I would like to hear BrotherDHK interpret these verses that mention explicitly mention faith as a work, "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith" (1 Thess 1:3) and again, "and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power" (2 Thess 1:11)
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother DHK,
I Thess. 1:2-4, Paul states "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." In this verse Paul thanks God for their work of faith. Why doesn't he thank them for it? Beacuse Paul is not looking to secondary sources but to the fountain, the source, which is God.
Then Paul adds additional information in I Thess. 2:13: "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." Notice in this verse it is man's reception of the Gospel that is the explicit "cause" for which Paul is thanking God! Paul puts in God's account man's initial reception of the Gospel, and subsequently thanks God for it continually.
Still more information is added in II Thess. 1:3: "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth." Here Paul expands his previous statements. He declares that he is "bound" (i.e. obligated or constrained) to thank God, Not only is God to be thanked for the fact that a man possesses faith and love in the first place, but according to this verse He is also to be praised and thanked when that faith grows and abounds in the lives of Christians. God, then, must be responsible, not only for the initial presence of faith, but also for it's maintenance, continuance and fruitfulness.
Consider this question. Can you sincerely look to God and say, thank you Lord for all that you have done for me, except for my faith, which I came up with on my own?! Such a statement would be blasphemous, yet it is the result of believing that we are the authors and finisher of our own faith.
Brother Joe
I Thess. 1:2-4, Paul states "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." In this verse Paul thanks God for their work of faith. Why doesn't he thank them for it? Beacuse Paul is not looking to secondary sources but to the fountain, the source, which is God.
Then Paul adds additional information in I Thess. 2:13: "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." Notice in this verse it is man's reception of the Gospel that is the explicit "cause" for which Paul is thanking God! Paul puts in God's account man's initial reception of the Gospel, and subsequently thanks God for it continually.
Still more information is added in II Thess. 1:3: "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth." Here Paul expands his previous statements. He declares that he is "bound" (i.e. obligated or constrained) to thank God, Not only is God to be thanked for the fact that a man possesses faith and love in the first place, but according to this verse He is also to be praised and thanked when that faith grows and abounds in the lives of Christians. God, then, must be responsible, not only for the initial presence of faith, but also for it's maintenance, continuance and fruitfulness.
Consider this question. Can you sincerely look to God and say, thank you Lord for all that you have done for me, except for my faith, which I came up with on my own?! Such a statement would be blasphemous, yet it is the result of believing that we are the authors and finisher of our own faith.
Brother Joe
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I am not going to go around in circles with you about this with you. You simply deny the scriptures at this point. Faith is not a work. The Bible plainly teaches; you plainly deny it. That is your choice.
savedbymercy
New Member
First, our discussion has been around the unsaved, unregenerate.
God does not give faith to the unregenerate. So don't change the subjection in the middle of the conversation.
Second, to answer this specific question, I will quote to you William MacDonald from Believer's Bible Commentary:
The result is always the same. Faith is not a work; faith is not meritorious in the sight of God.
You fail at answering direct questions?
What is the motive of a mother nursing her own child?
Is it a good work?
Her motive is the physical salvation/well-being of her child. If she doesn't nourish him he will die. Is it therefore a "good work"? Of course it is!
Even Jesus would classify it as a good work.
"If you then being evil give good gifts..." Apparently you deny the words of Jesus by pitting scripture against scripture. That is a sad way of expounding scripture or doing bible study.
I will tell you that a person can do good. Obviously a mother nourishing her child is a good thing.
I will also tell you that a sinner can actively seek God for God has put it in their hearts to do so:
Seek the Lord while you may find him.
Now God commands all men to repent.
God commands all men to love their neighbor as themselves--a command that he gave to unsaved lawyers, Pharisees, etc. He expected them to keep it. Their reply was: "Who is my neighbor," and Jesus replied with the parable of the Good Samaritan, which is applicable to all mankind.
--Doing good won't get one to heaven, but it is expected of all mankind.
Jesus told the rich young ruler: "Keep the law, and you shall live."
He was expected to do good. He had a reputation of being good before he even approached Jesus.
--It is our good that will not get us to heaven. But it is still good.
Your interpretation of these verses is wrong.
In Isaiah, he says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. True. But they are still righteousnesses. The point is that they, in the sight of God, will not get us to heaven.
I do understand it. The depravity of man is not equal to the the Calvinist's Total Inability of man which is not a scriptural doctrine. Calvin did not invent the Bible. Man has a sinful nature, but that doesn't mean he can't choose or think or make choices of his own will.
Jesus said:
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
--He gave man a choice: to believe or not.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--Again, the choice is man's: to believe or not to believe.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--Man's choice: to believe or not to believe. God doesn't force him.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
--The theme of the entire book is summarized right here in this verse:
Man has a choice that is set before him: to believe or not to believe. Which choice will he make?
When Jesus walked the face of this earth ALL heard him. ALL had the opportunity to believe. See the above scriptures. Judas walked with him, heard him, saw the miracles, and lived with for three years. Still he never believed. That was his choice.
No contradiction. When have I ever even inferred that it isn't?
No I don't agree. Regeneration IS salvation.
Read 1Pet.1:23 and then believe it. Don't deny it.
Regeneration is salvation. Even if you define it differently it happens at the same time.
The source of faith is "hearing the Word of God" (Rom.10:17). One must hear the gospel before he gets saved. He must understand the gospel before he gets saved. He must put his faith in that message that the gospel gives, that is in the blood of Christ and then and only then is he saved. Once he puts his faith in Christ, then he is regenerated/saved. Salvation has always been like that.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Pastor DHK wrote:
This is a classic Pelagian/Arminian argument: God would never command that which man cannot do.
However, the question is not only concerned with man’s ability to comply with the command.
It also concerns man’s will to comply with the command.
Scripture is clear.
Not only does man lack the ability to come to Christ, he also lacks the will to come to Christ.
In the Garden, before the fall, Adam had the ability to obey the Lord’s commandment.
He was perfectly capable of not eating the forbidden fruit.
It wasn’t as if the Lord was forbidding him from eating that which was absolutely necessary to sustain human life.
Although created with original righteousness, the problem with Adam was his lack of will power.
His will was susceptible to choosing unrighteousness over righteousness.
After the fall, man’s condition was fixed.
Man can do nothing but sin.
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Gen. 6:5)
All man’s supposed righteousnesses are but filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6)
Furthermore, the ability to come to Christ with saving, justifying faith is not within man’s sphere of power.
The power to obey the Lord was lost in the Garden.
Thus, Jesus teaches:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)
no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65)
Translation: No man has the power or ability to believe on me unless that power is given him by God the Father.
All to whom God has given the power will come to Christ in faith.
Jesus also teaches man’s will to obey is lost.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!” (Matt. 23:37 ESV)
The unwillingness of the Jews has no greater witness than that of their crucifying the Son of God.
The Good News
Our gracious God has the power and the will to change the unwilling into the willing, the powerless into the powerful, the hopeless into the hopeful.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people (Hebrews 8:10)
Through the omnipotent regenerating power of the Spirit, our Lord is gathering a people for His name.
His gospel call is going throughout the world, not in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance. (1 Thess. 1:5)
It is from the gracious, sovereign, merciful love of God that He gives the Elect both the will and the power to do His good pleasure.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)
Conclusion: The fault of non-compliance lies within man's sin nature.
God is not evil for commanding man do that which is good, holy and righteous.
This is a classic Pelagian/Arminian argument: God would never command that which man cannot do.
However, the question is not only concerned with man’s ability to comply with the command.
It also concerns man’s will to comply with the command.
Scripture is clear.
Not only does man lack the ability to come to Christ, he also lacks the will to come to Christ.
In the Garden, before the fall, Adam had the ability to obey the Lord’s commandment.
He was perfectly capable of not eating the forbidden fruit.
It wasn’t as if the Lord was forbidding him from eating that which was absolutely necessary to sustain human life.
Although created with original righteousness, the problem with Adam was his lack of will power.
His will was susceptible to choosing unrighteousness over righteousness.
After the fall, man’s condition was fixed.
Man can do nothing but sin.
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Gen. 6:5)
All man’s supposed righteousnesses are but filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6)
Furthermore, the ability to come to Christ with saving, justifying faith is not within man’s sphere of power.
The power to obey the Lord was lost in the Garden.
Thus, Jesus teaches:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)
no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65)
Translation: No man has the power or ability to believe on me unless that power is given him by God the Father.
All to whom God has given the power will come to Christ in faith.
Jesus also teaches man’s will to obey is lost.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!” (Matt. 23:37 ESV)
The unwillingness of the Jews has no greater witness than that of their crucifying the Son of God.
The Good News
Our gracious God has the power and the will to change the unwilling into the willing, the powerless into the powerful, the hopeless into the hopeful.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people (Hebrews 8:10)
Through the omnipotent regenerating power of the Spirit, our Lord is gathering a people for His name.
His gospel call is going throughout the world, not in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance. (1 Thess. 1:5)
It is from the gracious, sovereign, merciful love of God that He gives the Elect both the will and the power to do His good pleasure.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)
Conclusion: The fault of non-compliance lies within man's sin nature.
God is not evil for commanding man do that which is good, holy and righteous.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother DHK,
I do not contend that he gives faith to the unregenerate, unregenerate people have no faith. Regeneration occurs and at the same moment as a result of regeneration faith is immediately imparted to the child of God because they now have God's spirit living in them and He cannot deny Himself. The fact is in 1 Thessalonians 1:2-3 Paul thanks God for the saints at Thessalonians for their faith. If God had not given faith to them, had they obtained it on their own, he would have no reason to thank God for them having it! However, if you want to take the position that an undegenerated person can have faith in the gospel, thus becoming regenerated and then God will give them additional faith, you still have a problem because Paul adds additional information in I Thess. 2:13: "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." Notice in this verse it is man's reception of the Gospel that is the explicit "cause" for which Paul is thanking God! Paul puts in God's account man's initial reception of the Gospel, and subsequently thanks God for it continually. Why is God to be thanked by Paul for them believing the gospel if they did it on their own? I'll tell you why, because they didn't do it on their own, that is the only logical explanation!
Your own commentary from Mr. MacDonald you provided me regarding the verse in Thessalonians that mentions the Thessalonians "work of faith" says faith is a work! Here is the quote you provided from Mr. MacDonald, "In this sense, faith is an act or deed. But it is not toil by which a man earns merit or in which he can boast. In fact, it is the only work that man can perform without robbing Christ of His glory as Savior and without denying his own status as a helpless sinner. Faith is a non-meritorious work by which the creature acknowledges his Creator and the sinner acknowledges his Savior". Two times he calls it a "work" and once he calls it an "act or deed". He tries to back pedal by calling it a "non-meritorious work". That is an oxymoron! Can you give me other examples of "non-meritorious works"? There is no such a thing and the doctrine is foreign from scripture. The Bible only knows of works or grace, not grace, works , and "non-meritorious works". Salvation is of grace thus it is not of works or even "non-meritorious works" if you will! Faith is a result of regeneration and not the cause of it that is why it is called a "fruit" of the Spirit.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The Matt 18 parable says that the payment shall be made in full by the one who owed the debt.
Saved saints have their debt paid - but if one is not saved - their debt must be paid by their own torment and suffering in the lake of fire.
It was not paid to the Father or the Son.
Christ is God.
the Father is God.
"God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself" 2Cor 5.
The torment of God - is not how God gets paid.
in Christ,
Bob
If you wrote a theological book, I would buy it. :thumbs::thumbs:
Let me reiterate and repeat what I said in my last post:
You fail at answering direct questions?
IOW, you never answered the post. You just avoided the points I made, and went on your merry way espousing your 16th century Calvinism. Do you really think you are going to convince me without any serious discussion?
Furthermore, as mentioned before, I am neither Pelagian nor Arminian. You can drop the monikers any time now.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Welcome back, Bob.
If you would, please note in Matt. 18:27, Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
In your opinion, who is the lord and who is the servant referred to by Christ?
Then in verses 28ff. the parable takes a dark turn.
The forgiven servant does not forgive others.
His lord then revokes his forgiveness, delivering the unforgiving servant to the tormentors where he is tormented until his debt is paid in full.
In your opinion, does this parable teach:
1. Christians may lose their salvation.
2. Those tormented in Hell are only tormented for a specific time: the more the debt owed the longer the time period.
In your opinion:
3. Who paid the debt of the saints?
4. Why?
5. Will the unsaved ever pay back their debt through suffering in the Lake of Fire?
Bob, in your opinion:
6. To whom was the debt paid?
7. Why?
8. Was the debt paid on behalf of the entire world?
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer these pertinent and most important questions!
Protestant
Well-Known Member
You are too kind, my brother.
After reading your many biblically astute posts I would say your theological I.Q. is already in top form.
Truth is, we can all learn from each other......especially new arguments by which we can answer the many erroneous doctrines of our opponents.
Blessings in Christ Jesus, S. G.
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