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A KJ-Only church.
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Newp> God said He would preserve His word & that it was settled in heaven. Paul, although he was talking mainly about unknown tongues, reminds us that if he were speaking to someone in a language that one didn't know, that one wouldn't understand a word he said. So, obviously, when Paul was speaking or writing to Greex, he used Greek, while speaking or writing to Jews, he used Hebrew or Aramaic, & when addressing or writing to Romans, he used Greek or Latin. So, it's clear by implication in Scripture that God caused His word to be translated into the languages He'd given to His intended audiences and/or readership.
As for other things...the most basic & elemental particle of matter or energy we know of is the quark. Every sub-atomic particle, such as electrons, are made of quarks. Science has discovered six varieties of quarks, known as "flavors". There's a "recipe" for every sub-atomic particle; a combo of so many quarks of certain flavors make an electron. There's a different recipe for every particle. Those facts beg some questions:Where did quarks come from, how did each one get its flavor, who made the recipes for each sub-atomic particle, & how did the quarks come together to make each one? The answer is easy: GOD!
Romans 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
So, even primitive man should know there's an all-powerful God, and physicists & other scientists who study atoms & the particles they're made of should know even better! The most-primitive people can feel the air & see the effects of wind, although it's invisible. And non-Christian scientists are really without excuse, as the #1 rule of science is "be curious". Thus, they should be curious about where quarks came from & realize GOD made them & gave them their properties.
Thus, I have no doubt about what God has done, & the Scriptural proof is above. And I know some of what He HASN'T done, & that includes making the KJVO myth, which is against His policy of keeping His word accurately & understandably translated to mankind, in the various tongues He has given to various peoples & nations. (After all, when John of Japan finishes his new Japanese translation, I won't be able to read a word of it.)
As for other things...the most basic & elemental particle of matter or energy we know of is the quark. Every sub-atomic particle, such as electrons, are made of quarks. Science has discovered six varieties of quarks, known as "flavors". There's a "recipe" for every sub-atomic particle; a combo of so many quarks of certain flavors make an electron. There's a different recipe for every particle. Those facts beg some questions:Where did quarks come from, how did each one get its flavor, who made the recipes for each sub-atomic particle, & how did the quarks come together to make each one? The answer is easy: GOD!
Romans 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
So, even primitive man should know there's an all-powerful God, and physicists & other scientists who study atoms & the particles they're made of should know even better! The most-primitive people can feel the air & see the effects of wind, although it's invisible. And non-Christian scientists are really without excuse, as the #1 rule of science is "be curious". Thus, they should be curious about where quarks came from & realize GOD made them & gave them their properties.
Thus, I have no doubt about what God has done, & the Scriptural proof is above. And I know some of what He HASN'T done, & that includes making the KJVO myth, which is against His policy of keeping His word accurately & understandably translated to mankind, in the various tongues He has given to various peoples & nations. (After all, when John of Japan finishes his new Japanese translation, I won't be able to read a word of it.)
Sorry. Not a good argument. You must have a word from the scriptures that instructs you otherwise and that the choice of God's words do not concern him when they are translated into other languages and the more translations with different words and that even condensing them down by the thousands by the method of dynamic equivalence is better. Since you do not think the words apply because they are written in English, I would like to see the scripture for your position, if your position is a scriptural position.
If you say my belief in a word for word revelation from God is not right, then it stands that you can rebut my understanding with what the scriptures do teach on the subject. Let's have it, please.
God does deal with his revelation of himself in inspired words whether you believe it or not.
If those two things were all you don't believe then we could manage that.
thomas15
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I did not say that words in English do not apply. What I said: "It is possible to be a fundamentalist in the faith, hold to all that you believe, and add to that a belief in the inerrancy, the Verbal Plenary Inspiration of Scripture, take a literal approach to the Bible interpretation and not be KJVO. I see in close study of NASB, NKJV, NIV and so forth dispensational pre-mil and pre-trib doctrine and if there is someone currently on this board that is more of a critic of reformed covenant theology with all it's AMIL leanings who is a defender of dispensationalism please identify that person to me because it's very lonely behind my keyboard."
I can quote the exact same Scriptures to make my case that you quote to make your case. It doesn't prove anything except that you have the ability to post verses of Scripture.
What you are not doing is showing Scriptures that prove that the TR and/or KJV are the exact words that Jehovah intends man to know about Him and that any other source, either manuscript or translation in English, is from the devil. This is what you cannot do and this is what the KJVO movement cannot do. All they can do is call anyone who disagrees with them names and question their belief in Christ Crucified.
From the NKJ...
"Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:29-31
EASY !
In Collierville, Tn. yesterday, a gunman opened fire on whomever he could see, killing one & wounding 12, before shooting himself dead. He performed a great evil, but I don't hardly believe it was or money. So love of money was not the root for that evil. I could post umpteen examples, but I only need one.
The CORRECT wording in that verse, according to the Greek from which it was translated is, "the love of silver(money) is A root of ALL SORTS of evil."
And, in Luke's day, pascha meant only PASSOVER.(Easter didn't then exist.) It's the word JESUS is quoted as using for passover. (Unless one believes He observed Easter!)
rding
The Model T(1909-1927) was the best all-around car of its day, but, as roads were improved & paved, & inventions were made, better cars were made until the Model T became obsolete. There are a few still driven in the USA & elsewhere, but they're rarities, of course. Same with the KJV. While still a valid English Bible translation, it's now obsolete, with better versions now being made.
The whole work is outdated, & other renderings in it are poor, such as "Thou shalt not KILL" in Ex. 20:13.
The Model T(1909-1927) was the best all-around car of its day, but, as roads were improved & paved, & inventions were made, better cars were made until the Model T became obsolete. There are a few still driven in the USA & elsewhere, but they're rarities, of course. Same with the KJV. While still a valid English Bible translation, it's now obsolete, with better versions now being made.
The reason God in his providence prepared for the eventuality that his revelation of this age be written in Greek is because his people, the Hebrews, might believe and be saved. This eventuality became real when the national leaders led Israel to deny and reject their Messiah, Jesus Christ, when he came to save them and to establish his rule over the whole earth. The world was Hellenized in preparation for this because the Hebrews would be set aside nationally and only the remnant of Israel, small in number, would be the subject of his salvation, which is receiving the Holy Spirit from God in heaven into their mortal bodies, giving them eternal life by his presence in each of them, as witnessed by the scriptures at the feast of Pentecost in Acts 2, when out of the possible million or more Jews who were there for the festival, only 3000 received him.
This is further evidenced by the fact that God opened the door of faith to gentiles after ten years of patience with this people when his apostles and prophets had preached his gospel to them only and after so few responded by faith. Jesus Christ as a prophet had foretold of these days and here is just one of his prophecies. Read it here.
Lk 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
When will the house be filled?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be (future tense, not has been but shall be) saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Everything is on the schedule that is given in the prophecies but no Christians nowadays seems to be able to understand the mysteries and the MV's have much to do with it. Nobody believes their bible has any authority and they proudly boast about it. You, robycop3, are as bad as it gets.
It was God who created a seedbed for his New Testament scriptures through the Greek culture by allowing Alexander the Great to sow his influence though Europe, Asia, and Africa. The Jews in Jerusalem and Judea were hard core Christ rejecters but those in Asia minor were the object of the first missionary journey of the apostle Paul. They were those who were of the 10 tribes who God said in Hosea, "ye are not my people" and cast them out of the land and in so doing cut them off from the covenant promises, thus counting them as gentiles among gentiles where they reside. Peter, in his letters to them addressed them as strangers. A stranger is someone who is not at home. Now those of Israel are speaking the language in which God is writing as a response to their unbelief. If Israel would have received the salvation of God when it was offered then the NT would have been written in Hebrew and the gentiles would not have been part of the church of Jesus Christ. The door through which gentiles are saved is a Jewish door. I am just simply amazed at the wisdom of God in the prosecution of his gospel to the world. It is all recorded in the NT. The fact that God was speaking to Israel in a language other than Hebrew is a sign to them that they are under the disciplining hand of God. Israel in the gentiles lands gave gentiles the opportunity to hear. Read Acts 13.
This Greek language had to do with the Jews until Judah was dispersed in the great dispersion of 70 AD, which, not coincidentally, marked the end of the generation of Jesus Christ. This is the generation to whom Jesus warned had committed the unpardonable sin and who he would not save because of it.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (age = AION), neither in the world (Aion = age) to come.
The age to come at the time Jesus made this statement is the age we are living in now. It began at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The epistle to the Hebrews records the invitation of those covenanted people Israel to repent and to receive Jesus Christ. God had given them 40 years to enter into their rest and if they would have then he would have fulfilled all his promises of judgement and destroyed those he had cursed and would have established his earthly rule over the nations. The "end" that is referred to over and over in Hebrews is a reference to the end of this 40 probationary period for the Hebrews.
Now the whole 12 tribe nation is under the government of gentiles in their lands and cut off from their covenants and separated from God. Nationally they are reckoned dead by God. They, in effect, are gentiles. Here is that probationary period in the gospel prophecy.
Lk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree (Israel) planted in his vineyard (Judah - see Is 5) ; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years (time of Jesus ministry) I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: (Probation)
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
It was cut down and removed in 70 AD.
Since that time God has been speaking to Israel in something besides Greek and Hebrew. They speak in the language of the nations to which they are driven and God is not confusing them with many different words in the same language. Why would anybody conclude such a thing?
1 Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Those who believe not are Jews. When God restores them nationally and saves every one of them, this prophecy will be fulfilled.
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people (Israel) a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent.
The pure language simply means one language, Hebrew, that all speaks in their own land and all understands.
Greek was a good language for bible days and did its purpose but it is not good now. The Jews need to hear from God in the language of commerce today, English. God has, in his providence, established the nations for the best opportunity for his people to be saved during these last days.
Thank God for the KJV because this is it.
Do you hold then to the ridiculous claims that modern versions are all satanic?
So the Kjv trumps the Hebrew and Greek that God originally gave to his Prophet and Apostles?
God ordained that the Hebrew/Aramiac/Greek languages were the ones that he used to send His inspired words thru, NOT English! The original were Inspired by the Holy Spirit, NOT the Kjv!
Formal translations such as the nas/esv/Nkjv are all great!
I can read and I can heed. The bible I read and believe says that if anyone takes away from the words of this prophesy God will take away his part out of the book of life.
If men have the arrogance to believe they have the ability to condense the end times prophecy of God, that has not happened yet, with dynamic equivalent versions that reduce the words of the scriptures by thousand, then yes, I believe them to be Satanic inspirations, or at least the idea for so many as being Satanic.. Continuing to produce more and more translations in the same language makes zero sense, unless you are someone who has a nefarious plan for doing so.
You have lots of silly doctrines, & your thralldom to the KJVO myth is a contributor to them.
The door of salvation has always been open to gentiles. More than one Egyptian, Kenite, and people of other nations went with Israel outta Egypt, followed God's laws same as the Israelis, & were thus considered righteous, same as them.
Jesus saved a few gentiles early in His ministry, as is plain in Scripture.
Why was the New Testament written in Greek? Because it was the main language of God's chosen penmen. Yes, the Jews were under punishment, & had been so ever since the Babylonian conquest. Even when they built a new temple, they were under Persian rule.
And Jerusalem is still trod underfoot by gentiles. Besides its Palestinian residents, there are steady parades of non-Israeli Moslems & Christians making their way to their respective holy sites.
The "age to come" is the world after the millenium & GWT judgment have passed, & God remodels the earth's surface & hrings the New Jerusalem down.
We don't know what the "pure language" will be. It'll likely be something entirely-new. As Hebrew then existed, it that were to be it, God woulda said so.
As for language use, Chinese is the most-used, but it's limited almost entirely to China. Spanish is used in more countries by more people than English. And, of course, God has His word in Chinese & Spanish as well as in English. The first Chinese-language Bible was made in 1625; today the most-used versions are the 1936 revision of the Union Bible & the New Chinese version. In Spanish, the Reina-Valera of 1602 was the predominant version for a long time, but now, it's the 1960 revision of that work into modern Spanish, with several newer modern Spanish versions having been made & increasing in popularity( Protestant Bibles, not RCC editions)
English is hard to learn for most people not growing up with it. The idea that English is the universal world language is part of the KJVO myth, & is as false as the rest of that myth.
Something you need to let sink in-GOD is no-more-limited to the KJV in English than man is to the Model T. As the language changed, God caused newer translations of His word to be made, same as He did in Tyndale's time & the early 17th century.
The door of salvation has always been open to gentiles. More than one Egyptian, Kenite, and people of other nations went with Israel outta Egypt, followed God's laws same as the Israelis, & were thus considered righteous, same as them.
Jesus saved a few gentiles early in His ministry, as is plain in Scripture.
Why was the New Testament written in Greek? Because it was the main language of God's chosen penmen. Yes, the Jews were under punishment, & had been so ever since the Babylonian conquest. Even when they built a new temple, they were under Persian rule.
And Jerusalem is still trod underfoot by gentiles. Besides its Palestinian residents, there are steady parades of non-Israeli Moslems & Christians making their way to their respective holy sites.
The "age to come" is the world after the millenium & GWT judgment have passed, & God remodels the earth's surface & hrings the New Jerusalem down.
We don't know what the "pure language" will be. It'll likely be something entirely-new. As Hebrew then existed, it that were to be it, God woulda said so.
As for language use, Chinese is the most-used, but it's limited almost entirely to China. Spanish is used in more countries by more people than English. And, of course, God has His word in Chinese & Spanish as well as in English. The first Chinese-language Bible was made in 1625; today the most-used versions are the 1936 revision of the Union Bible & the New Chinese version. In Spanish, the Reina-Valera of 1602 was the predominant version for a long time, but now, it's the 1960 revision of that work into modern Spanish, with several newer modern Spanish versions having been made & increasing in popularity( Protestant Bibles, not RCC editions)
English is hard to learn for most people not growing up with it. The idea that English is the universal world language is part of the KJVO myth, & is as false as the rest of that myth.
Something you need to let sink in-GOD is no-more-limited to the KJV in English than man is to the Model T. As the language changed, God caused newer translations of His word to be made, same as He did in Tyndale's time & the early 17th century.
You are assuming that the TR is the best Greek text basis here, something few would agree with!
The word of the Lord existed way before there was even a kjv or TR!
I don't care for "dynamic equivalence" versions a bit.
I use the NKJV & NASV the most. (and believe them!) The ESV isn't too bad, either.
Now, can you **PROVE** they take away from Giod's word?
OTOH, I can **PROVE** the KJV has ADDED to God's word, which He commands to not do, same as He commanded to not subtract from it. In the KJV's Rev. 16:5, the words "and shalt be" are found, and NO known ancient manuscript of Revelation has those words in that verse.
So what you are saying is that the KJ translators should NOT have added in the italicized words?
And that the many later edits of the 1611 KJV are also wrongheaded?
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