A little "end time" confusion (Who is leaving?)

[Darrell C]

The Apostle John saw souls not resurrected bodies.

The Apostle John saw the redeemed of the Tribulation resurrected.

To think that this is "the last day" can be seen clearly in the text in that, there is a thousand year period which follows this resurrection.

What do we do with those that live during this time, where men live considerably longer? Those that do not believe that there will be a literal 1000 year period after the tribulation may see this as symbolic in nature, and I can understand that, really. But when we pore through all that is said concerning resurrection, I myself see this to say exactly what it means.

As far as the usage of soul in scripture, that is a topic worthy of it's own thread.

Therefore, verse 4 could not be referring to he so-called pre-tribulation rapture.

I have never once said this speaks of a rapture event.

I was quite clear in everything I have said thus far, the public record will uphold that.

This is not a rapture event, but it is a resurrection event. In a rapture event, men are resurrected and in one place, meet Christ in the air. The two witnesses go to heaven.

In this resurrection event, we assume that these are in heaven, and after resurrection, have some sort of access to the earthly 1000 year kingdom.

The statement in verse 5: This is the first resurrection. can only be reference to "the new birth", the spiritual resurrection, of John 5:25 or to the First Resurrection, that of Jesus Christ.

The New Birth is a spiritual resurrection, made complete bodily in the glorification of those that have been saved.

Man was separated from God through Adam, he is born the first time in Adam (see a similar concept in Hebrews where Levitical priests gave tithes to Melchisadec through Abraham), and born again...in Christ.

It can be viewed, according to scripture, as born: again; from above; of God.

We do not see the Tribulation martyrs "born again" in Revelation 20, they clearly have received Christ, and refused Antichrist (which is they were killed), and at this time they are resurrected.

I don't understand your point here?

The point is that they were redeemed, but not yet glorified.



Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here we see the "souls of them" slain for the word of God. They cry out for vengeance, and are told to rest, until their fellowservants who will be killed as they were are...killed as they were.

Revelation 20 speaks, in my view, of these fellowservants. That they are not resurrected until the end of the Tribulation is clear, but, that they are God's is also clear.

According to dispensational doctrine of the "7 year tribulation" verse 4 can only refer to the "Tribulation Martyrs" because they are martyred as a result of their rejection of the "beast" who only appears during that 7 years of great tribulation.

Not just according to dispensational doctrine, but this is my view as well. If that makes me a dispensationalist, so be it. But it does not, it just makes me one that reads this for what is stated in the text. I can understand this being generalized by some, but again, once we look at all that scripture has to say concerning judgment, resurrection, and redemption, this only makes this view all the more reasonable.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

There is coming a day when virtually the whole earth will embrace a false Messiah who will be empowered by Satan.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostasy] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:3-4

I'm afraid that most will be fooled by the miracles and supernatural powers of the Man of Sin.

Those of us who are obedient to the Holy Spirit and walk in the Spirit, read something like this and the words seem to LEAP OFF THE PAGE.
Let no man deceive you, the Lord will take VENGEANCE in His Day of Wrath... "The Day of the Lord".

I agree: the Day of the Lord is yet to come, though we can, by looking at the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament see that the Day of the Lord is descriptive of God's intervention in the lives of men, usually in judgment, though judgment is usually followed with restoration, such as will be Israel's case when the Lord fulfills His promise to what the Jew's of Jesus' day called restoration.

A dark and gloomy day it will be for the lost.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

hello darrell...give a listen and read here to these;

http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_carnal.htm

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/are_there_carnal.shtml

Hello Iconoclast, while I appreciate the links, time does not allow that I read very much commentary, but I did look long enough to see that the notion of a "carnal Christian" is rejected.

Consider that while the redeemed have been saved, we are yet in the body, and because of that, we have been commanded to to "mortify the members" (of the body, basically, to put away sin in our lives which is caused due to the normal needs of the body corrupted.

Example: while we are in the body, we must eat to live. This does not negate Christ's words that if we eat of the flesh of Christ (believe in His death) we will never die, but have eternal life, because the life we have in Christ does not speak of physical life, but spiritual life.

In our example we must eat, however, while in a sincere faith in Christ we know in our hearts we should eat healthy, the body will produce desires for things that may not be healthy, but rather satisfy...the flesh.

Pizza instead of greens. Tacos instead of broccoli...lol.

Consider:



Romans 15:27

King James Version (KJV)

27It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.


Paul contrasts spiritual things with carnal things. Here, he is exhorting them to minister carnal things to those that minister to them in spiritual things.

Nothing wrong with that. It speaks of worldly sustenance traded for spiritual sustenance, or, "things which we feed upon," respectively. The as of yet physical factor of our existance requires that we feed ourselves, our as of salvation spiritual factor requires that we also feed ourselves for spiritual growth.

The primary point being that we are yet in our bodies.

Paul uses the term carnal in rebuking those we would almost all agree are believers:


1 Corinthians 3

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


While they were probably saved, they were unlearned, and as a result of this, their spiritual life suffered just as much as if they had either neglected to feed themselves physically, or...fed themselves with junk food.

His point is this: "Are you not acting even as the world acts? What difference is there of your behavior...and those that are not saved?"

So you see, I hold to the view that not only are there carnal Christians, but admit that there have been many occasions in my walk with the Lord that I myself have at times acted no different than the world: I have shown anger and hatred, rather than self control and love, for example.

As far as the links go, I am sure there will be things I will agree with, and things I would not. If the authors of these works were members, and wish to discuss it personally, I would be glad to, to meet them at the basis of their belief, which would be the scriptural presentation they presented to support the reason they believe as they do. But, my intention is not to examine the beliefs of the millions of people that have given their basis, but to speak to individuals...individually.

It is just more productive that way. All of us should be able, apart from other's beliefs, to give a clear scriptural presentation of why we believe the way we do.

When I come in disagreement with others, I enter discussion with them, to determine whether they believe what they believe based on scripture, or are presenting the beliefs of others which they have embraced, which we all do, really, as we begin our growth in Christ. However, we can have faith that it is God that is conforming us to the image of the Son, and He will use teachers He has gifted for this express purpose, but it is when we mature that we begin to discern good and evil for ourselves, and we begin to be taught of God in a way we did not when we were "babes."

But, as I said, I do appreciate the links, and I would probably like to read them, though, within the first paragraph of the second work I could see that the author was contrary to that which I believe concerning "carnal Christians."

Now, I do agree that Christians, in position and standing, are fully redeemed. However, I also recognize that Christians are commanded to put away sin, and if Christians could not sin, no such instruction, which is no small amount, would be necessary.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Okay, as I said, I have not read the thread in entirety, but I do believe that the Restrainer is the Spirit of God.

I would be interested as to what Preterists view this restraint to be.

God bless.

 

[asterisktom]

Okay, as I said, I have not read the thread in entirety, but I do believe that the Restrainer is the Spirit of God.

I would be interested as to what Preterists view this restraint to be.

God bless.

I believe the restrainer to be Claudius and the man of sin to be Nero. At the time of writing of this epistle (AD 52) Nero was not yet in power, but was in the wings. But very soon Claudius will have been poisoned and Nero will reign.

Claudius's rule was generally beneficial to the Christians, providing a curb against the anti-Christian activity of the Jews. He even had banished them from Rome at one time because of their reaction concerning "Chrestus". These were probably riots against Christians, exactly the same reaction we read of several times in Acts.

Nero coming in power, though not apparent at first (see especially Tacitus on this), was good for the Jews (Poppaea was a Jewish proselyte), bad for the Christians.

Important background to this chapter of Thessalonians is the history recorded in Acts 17. There we find just who the "troublers" are: the Jews.

The restrainer of the troublers was Claudius.
The man of sin was Nero.

If the restrainer was indeed God there would have been no need fr Paul to have been oblique in his reference to Him. But there was a need for him to be oblique in his designation of Nero as man of sin. Nero was still to come in power,and the Thessalonians - by possible indictment of a written document (this epistle) - stand to be accused on political, not spiritual, grounds. Paul would not have wanted this.

This connection of Nero with the man of sin, and of Claudius as restrainer, is not a recent one. Augustine, Chrysostom, Victorinus are just a few that come to mind who also had this view.

 

[Darrell C]

I believe the restrainer to be Claudius and the man of sin to be Nero. At the time of writing of this epistle (AD 52) Nero was not yet in power, but was in the wings. But very soon Claudius will have been poisoned and Nero will reign.

Claudius's rule was generally beneficial to the Christians, providing a curb against the anti-Christian activity of the Jews. He even had banished them from Rome at one time because of their reaction concerning "Chrestus". These were probably riots against Christians, exactly the same reaction we read of several times in Acts.

Nero coming in power, though not apparent at first (see especially Tacitus on this), was good for the Jews (Poppaea was a Jewish proselyte), bad for the Christians.

Important background to this chapter of Thessalonians is the history recorded in Acts 17. There we find just who the "troublers" are: the Jews.

The restrainer of the troublers was Claudius.
The man of sin was Nero.

If the restrainer was indeed God there would have been no need fr Paul to have been oblique in his reference to Him. But there was a need for him to be oblique in his designation of Nero as man of sin. Nero was still to come in power,and the Thessalonians - by possible indictment of a written document (this epistle) - stand to be accused on political, not spiritual, grounds. Paul would not have wanted this.

This connection of Nero with the man of sin, and of Claudius as restrainer, is not a recent one. Augustine, Chrysostom, Victorinus are just a few that come to mind who also had this view.

I can understand how this could be embraced as fulfillment of that which Paul predicts, however (and you knew that was coming...lol)...


2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


I will start in the "middle of the passage in view. Here, the primary point I would make in this verse would be simply this: the events that occurred in the first centurey did not see a "gathering together unto Christ."

While this could be viewed as a general reference to death, as we explore 2 Thessalonians, particularly chapters 1 & 2, there are events which take place that could not be acheived by man.

In the first two chapters, examples would be:

1 Thessalonians 1[/B]

1-

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

(did not occur in the 1st century)


2-

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

(did not occur in the 1st century)


2 Thessalonians 2


3-

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(did not occur in the 1st century)

I would just like to add to my original point that the very doctrine of the Rapture itself is foremost in need of examination, and here, the coupling of His coming and our gathering is not oblique, but follows previous exhortation and words of comfort to the recipients of this epistle. Which would be found in 1 Thessalonians.

We know that if we are to view "Christ's Coming" in a general sense, His Coming would not fail to recognize thie Coming as being His earthly ministry, in which He died, and while He did come, and He "gathered" believers, here there is a view to a specific future event. If we generalize, this makes the prophetic nature of Paul's teaching here oblique. Having already coforted them concerning the Rapture, he does so again here.


4-

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

While we can see a fulfillment in the events in the 1st century, and can see that "falling away" is something that takes place on a daily basis, individually in the lives of those that profess Christ, we still see a specific event taking place here, as taught by Paul.

As we look at the passage, we understand that Paul refers back to that which he has taught them, and it is reasonable to view 1 Thessalonians as at least part of what he refers to here (2:1).

If the restrainer was indeed God there would have been no need fr Paul to have been oblique in his reference to Him. But there was a need for him to be oblique in his designation of Nero as man of sin. Nero was still to come in power,and the Thessalonians - by possible indictment of a written document (this epistle) - stand to be accused on political, not spiritual, grounds. Paul would not have wanted this.

I do not disagree with the thought here, however, men such as these do not meet the clear-cut description of events given in the first chapter. That this is speaking of God's judgment can be clearly seen. It is a constant theme trough both epistles.

Okay, that is a start, I need to devote some time to other portions of this site, but will check back later for a reply.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular

The Apostle John saw souls not resurrected bodies.

Response Posted by Darrell
The Apostle John saw the redeemed of the Tribulation resurrected.

Darrell C.

Your saying they were resurrected Tribulation Saints does not change Scripture. John saw souls not bodies.

Revelation 20:1-10 is a recapitulation of events from the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ until His return in Power and Glory as recorded in Revelation 19.

Scripture teaches that Satan was bound by the work of Jesus Christ, and that is a fact:

Matthew 12:29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

John 12:30, 31
30. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[convicted1]

Darrell C.

Your saying they were resurrected Tribulation Saints does not change Scripture. John saw souls not bodies.

Revelation 20:1-10 is a recapitulation of events from the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ until His return in Power and Glory as recorded in Revelation 19.

Scripture teaches that Satan was bound by the work of Jesus Christ, and that is a fact:

Matthew 12:29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

John 12:30, 31
30. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C.

Your saying they were resurrected Tribulation Saints does not change Scripture. John saw souls not bodies.

Nor was there an attempt to.

And you state something here I did not say. What I said was that these are Tribulation Martyrs...being resurrected.

Big difference.

If you would like to have a conversation concerning New Testament, as well as Old Testament usage of the term "soul," I would be glad to.

The primary issue that I addressed was the thought that these "souls" are at this time receiving salvation, for, as I stated...they are already redeemed, and, I will add, that they have been redeemed from thoer earthly bodies as well.

Revelation 20:1-10 is a recapitulation of events from the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ until His return in Power and Glory as recorded in Revelation 19.

I can understand someone having such a view, however, can you show me where else in scripture an exact amount of time is said to be a different period than the amount of time given?

The fact that the term "souls" is used in conjuction with a resurrection shows that these have obviously not been resurrected until this point, meaning, if we spiritualize the text to be a general overview of human history, what you have done is to make those that are saved and living in the world today...glorified saints.

But, if the text is kept in the context of the book it seems clear that these have died, and unlike those mentioned in v. 5, who lived not again, resurrection is the reasonable view.

Scripture teaches that Satan was bound by the work of Jesus Christ, and that is a fact:

Then we can disregard Peter's warning and exhortation:



1 Peter 5:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.


And we can ignore many references in Revelation as well, right?

Matthew 12:29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

The context refers to casting out Satan by casting out devils.

John 12:30, 31
30. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out

I am not entirely sure, but am pretty sure, that it was you that gave this:



Revelation 11:15

King James Version (KJV)

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


...as a verse showing, well, I found it, so let me just quote it:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
No! NO! A Thousand Times NO! The last trumpet will sound at the general resurrection of all the dead when Jesus Christ will return in Power and Great Glory, casting Satan and those who died in Adam into the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 11:15-19
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

There will be a New Heaven and New Earth where the Triune God will tabernacle with all the redeemed of all time, the New Jerusalem, the chaste Bride of Jesus Christ.

So it seems that in both you ascribe Christ's rule at two different times. And these speak of two different times, as of right now, no less than two thousand years separating them.

Another verse showing similar terminology would be:



Revelation 12:9

King James Version (KJV)

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

In v. 10 we see another statement such as heard in 11:15, stating God's kingdom is come, and the power of His Christ.

However, what do we do with the rest of the Tribulation?

If we generalize and spiritualize one text, we are forced to do so with another, until at last we make statements that can clearly be seen to in contradiction to another passage, such as, "Satan is already bound."

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;[/color][/i]

There is no question that Christ has delivered the fatal blow to the serpent, in fact, his head is crushed as was promised him in the Garden.

But to say that Satan is bound denies the testimony of scripture in many places, not least of all in Revelation.

Sorry for the length, and perhaps a little bit distracted commentary, as I am posting this in the midst of distraction.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Darrell C.

The Book of Revelation is indeed difficult Scripture to understand. That being said I have never seen any dispensationalist who understood anything that is revealed in that wonderful Book.

I don't claim to know a lot about the Revelation but I do know that the passage from Revelation 11 at the sound of the last trumpet is a picture of the return of Jesus Christ and the end of time as we know it: The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Actually there are several other pictures of the return of Jesus Christ in Revelation. As for the thousand year reign it is nonsense to try to impose a "face value" interpretation, as Ryrie claims, on a book with apocalyptic language.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C.

The Book of Revelation is indeed difficult Scripture to understand. That being said I have never seen any dispensationalist who understood anything that is revealed in that wonderful Book.

I don't claim to know a lot about the Revelation but I do know that the passage from Revelation 11 at the sound of the last trumpet is a picture of the return of Jesus Christ and the end of time as we know it: The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Actually there are several other pictures of the return of Jesus Christ in Revelation. As for the thousand year reign it is nonsense to try to impose a "face value" interpretation, as Ryrie claims, on a book with apocalyptic language.

Well, you can address the points made, or you can offer an opinion.

One question: Are the judgments successive or not?

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Response by Darrell C.
I am not entirely sure, but am pretty sure, that it was you that gave this:

Revelation 11:15

King James Version (KJV)

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


...as a verse showing, well, I found it, so let me just quote it:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
No! NO! A Thousand Times NO! The last trumpet will sound at the general resurrection of all the dead when Jesus Christ will return in Power and Great Glory, casting Satan and those who died in Adam into the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 11:15-19
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

There will be a New Heaven and New Earth where the Triune God will tabernacle with all the redeemed of all time, the New Jerusalem, the chaste Bride of Jesus Christ.

Response by Darrell C.
So it seems that in both you ascribe Christ's rule at two different times. And these speak of two different times, as of right now, no less than two thousand years separating them.

Darrell C.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Where did I say anything about two thousand years.

Jesus Christ is ruling now, Scripture teaches that truth. But His work is not yet done and will not be until He brings everything to a close with the general resurrection and general judgment [The Great White Throne Judgment] and Satan and those who died in Adam are cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[OldRegular]

One question: Are the judgments successive or not?

There is one judgment as I note in the above post, the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Matthew 13:24-52 is Jesus' clear description of exactly what will happen when He returns; without the apocalyptic judgement language. Judgement language is colorful hyperbole which is MUCH more fantastic than the actual events which they represent. No 1,000yrs of Christ temporarily sitting on an earthly throne to fulfill the prophecies of an everlasting throne. No reinstitution of a fulfilled covenant, which would make it yet unfulfilled. No physical Israel being blessed apart from the spiritual Israel & therefore apart from Christ (the promise).

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

 

[OldRegular]

Matthew 13:24-52 is Jesus' clear description of exactly what will happen when He returns; without the apocalyptic judgement language. Judgement language is colorful hyperbole which is MUCH more fantastic than the actual events which they represent. No 1,000yrs of Christ temporarily sitting on an earthly throne to fulfill the prophecies of an everlasting throne. No reinstitution of a fulfilled covenant, which would make it yet unfulfilled. No physical Israel being blessed apart from the spiritual Israel & therefore apart from Christ (the promise).

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

Well said!

 

[convicted1]

Darrell C.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Where did I say anything about two thousand years.

Jesus Christ is ruling now, Scripture teaches that truth. But His work is not yet done and will not be until He brings everything to a close with the general resurrection and general judgment [The Great White Throne Judgment] and Satan and those who died in Adam are cast into the Lake of Fire.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

There is one judgment as I note in the above post, the Great White Throne Judgment.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Matthew 13:24-52 is Jesus' clear description of exactly what will happen when He returns; without the apocalyptic judgement language. Judgement language is colorful hyperbole which is MUCH more fantastic than the actual events which they represent. No 1,000yrs of Christ temporarily sitting on an earthly throne to fulfill the prophecies of an everlasting throne. No reinstitution of a fulfilled covenant, which would make it yet unfulfilled. No physical Israel being blessed apart from the spiritual Israel & therefore apart from Christ (the promise).

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: To back Brother OldRegular, well said. Bravo! Cudos! Woot!

 

[convicted1]

Matthew 25:31-46

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Again, I want someone, anyone to show me 1,007 years between this judgement. It's not there. When Jesus comes in the Cloud, He will have His reward with Him. Those on the right(sheep) go to heaven, those on the left(goats), go to the lake of fire. This right here is the GWT judgement.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Where did I say anything about two thousand years.

Jesus Christ is ruling now, Scripture teaches that truth. But His work is not yet done and will not be until He brings everything to a close with the general resurrection and general judgment [The Great White Throne Judgment] and Satan and those who died in Adam are cast into the Lake of Fire.

If Revelation 20 is..."Revelation 20:1-10 is a recapitulation of events from the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ until His return in Power and Glory as recorded in Revelation 19."

...then apparently John misheard what he was told to write, for he states clearly a thousand year period between the resurrection of the Tribulation saints, those that died within the Tribulation, and the Great White Throne judgment, where those that did not "live again" until the thousand years were up.

Jesus Christ is ruling now, Scripture teaches that truth.

He is ruling to be sure, the kingdom of God that is within us.

However, that Satan reigns in the world system even today can be seen in many places. Would you suggest that it is God that reigns over the wicked? Those that have openly rejected Him?


Ephesians 2

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


Ephesians 6

King James Version (KJV)

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.



1 Peter 5:8

King James Version (KJV)

8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


Would we think that scripture does not tell us this?

There is one judgment as I note in the above post, the Great White Throne Judgment.

Is it not thought that the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials...are not judgments?

God bless.