A little "end time" confusion (Who is leaving?)

[OldRegular]

all the fulness of the gentiles will have come in, and the lord will have the time of Jacobs folly/trouble, time of intense tribulation upon the surviving Jews at end days...

the Lord will be preparing the remant that comes through it to be ready to receive jesus at His returning as the messiah, and a fountain for isreal cleansing and salvation will be at that time, as Ezeckiel vision of a fully restored isreal will be proved true, and they will call upon him and ALL isreal alive at that time will be saved, a nation reborn in 1 day!

Scripture please!

 

[OldRegular]

Assuming that you are taking an amillennial view with your response, doesn't verses from chapter 20 precede 21 and 22?

How does a person not have a millennial reign referred to in chapter 20 with specific verse stating, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Doesn't the amillennial view hold there is no millennium? "A" is latin which denotes the absence of, not existing, ...

What is the first resurrection and who has part in it?

 

[OldRegular]

Assuming that you are taking an amillennial view with your response, doesn't verses from chapter 20 precede 21 and 22?

How does a person not have a millennial reign referred to in chapter 20 with specific verse stating, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Doesn't the amillennial view hold there is no millennium? "A" is latin which denotes the absence of, not existing, ...

I posted the following just for JesusFan on another thread but is appropriate here.

"I believe the 1000 years represents the "Church" Age, a long indeterminate period of time. During this period of time Jesus Christ is reigning with the departed Saints [Revelation 20] but there is much more to come.

At the end of that period of time ["Church" Age] there will be a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead followed by the New Heavens and New Earth where God will "tabernacle" with all the redeemed of all time.[Revelation 21:3]

 

[agedman]

What is the first resurrection and who has part in it?

Good Question! A short answer from Scriptures.

"But every man in his own order: Christ (ascension to heaven), the first fruits (what some call the rapture), afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the second coming to establish the millennial reign)."

 

[OldRegular]

Good Question! A short answer from Scriptures.

"But every man in his own order: Christ (ascension to heaven), the first fruits (what some call the rapture), afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the second coming to establish the millennial reign)."

You are adding to Scripture. That is a No No. Also you are taking the passage completely out of context!

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

You see that in verse 20 Jesus Christ is identified as the first fruits, the First Resurrection. You insert words in verse 23 and claim that the so-called rapture is the "first fruits". I believe the technical term for that is eisegesis. In this case blatant because of the way you presented it.

Christ is the First Resurrection, the only resurrection to date. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are those saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Over these the Second Death will have no power.

agedman

You inserted a comma after the name Christ in your post. Was that to make it read as you wanted? I have heard that the JW's do that but not Baptists, I hope!

 

[agedman]

I posted the following just for JesusFan on another thread but is appropriate here.

"I believe the 1000 years represents the "Church" Age, a long indeterminate period of time. During this period of time Jesus Christ is reigning with the departed Saints [Revelation 20] but there is much more to come.

At the end of that period of time ["Church" Age] there will be a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead followed by the New Heavens and New Earth where God will "tabernacle" with all the redeemed of all time.[Revelation 21:3]

The idea of the 1000 years as an indeterminate period of time is problematic considering the following:

> Christ said, "only the Father knows the day or time of the return" yet if the amillennial thinking is correct then Christ could easily calculate the exact day by watching for events such as the literal opening of seals, trumpet sounds, and dumping of bowls,...

> The enemy is not chained (as Rev. 20 states) as the Scriptures indicate will happen in the millennial reign. Further the Scriptures state that there will be a physical Christ sitting upon the throne ruling with a rod of iron, and the islands will not exist - for they are destroyed during the tribulation.

> Jesus' prayer, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." indicates that, currently in heaven, every thought of God is carried out that is certainly not taking place outside an actual millennial reign.

> The angelic statement, "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." An actual physical presence on this earth.

> The prophets of the OT specifically told of a literal return of the Jews to the land, and that the Messiah would rule over them. That coupled with "every eye shall see him" and "they shall look upon him whom they pierced..." indicate a complete physical return of Christ to this earth to rule.

> There would also be a confusion over terms such as "day of wrath," "day of the Lord," ... which does not exist within the pre-trib thinking.

 

[agedman]

You are adding to Scripture. That is a No No. Also you are taking the passage completely out of context!

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

You see that in verse 20 Jesus Christ is identified as the first fruits, the First Resurrection. You insert words in verse 23 and claim that the so-called rapture is the "first fruits". I believe the technical term for that is eisegesis. In this case blatant because of the way you presented it.

Christ is the First Resurrection, the only resurrection to date. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are those saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Over these the Second Death will have no power.

agedman

You inserted a comma after the name Christ in your post. Was that to make it read as you wanted? I have heard that the JW's do that but not Baptists, I hope!

I realize that many would agree with you and I do too, but consider what the "first fruits" were in the Old Testament.

I was placing emphasis upon Christ as possessor and secure holder of all "first fruits" which I consider the passage holds as consistent with the OT example. The first fruits would align to all that is owed and owned, all that "God has given him" and as such Christ is highly exalted and in total control of the resurrection(s).

 

[OldRegular]

The idea of the 1000 years as an indeterminate period of time is problematic considering the following:

> Christ said, "only the Father knows the day or time of the return" yet if the amillennial thinking is correct then Christ could easily calculate the exact day by watching for events such as the literal opening of seals, trumpet sounds, and dumping of bowls,...

Jesus Christ had to be speaking from His human nature. There is ONE GOD, Father Son , and Holy Spirit. What one knows all know.

> The enemy is not chained (as Rev. 20 states) as the Scriptures indicate will happen in the millennial reign.

Matthew 12:28, 29
28. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Appears to me that Jesus Christ is saying:

1. The kingdom of God is come unto you.

2. Satan is bound.

Scripture states further:

Hebrews 2:14, 15
14. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Sounds like that old serpent is in a heap of trouble!

Further the Scriptures state that there will be a physical Christ sitting upon the throne ruling with a rod of iron, and the islands will not exist - for they are destroyed during the tribulation.

Scripture states the following about Jesus Christ and His return:

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:31,
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 20:11, 12
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

So Jesus Christ will return in all the Glory of the Godhead to resurrect all the dead and render judgment. Now Scripture tells us that mortal man cannot look on the Glory of God and live. So how are there going to be mortals on earth as you dispensationalists claim?

1 Timothy 6:14-16
14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

> Jesus' prayer, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." indicates that, currently in heaven, every thought of God is carried out that is certainly not taking place outside an actual millennial reign.

So God did not answer the prayer of Jesus Christ?

> The angelic statement, "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." An actual physical presence on this earth.

I believe in the actual presence of the LORD Jesus Christ on the NEW EARTH as discussed in Revelation 21, 22.

> The prophets of the OT specifically told of a literal return of the Jews to the land, and that the Messiah would rule over them. That coupled with "every eye shall see him" and "they shall look upon him whom they pierced..." indicate a complete physical return of Christ to this earth to rule.

Scripture please. As I recall the Jews were removed from the land to Babylon and returned!

> There would also be a confusion over terms such as "day of wrath," "day of the Lord," ... which does not exist within the pre-trib thinking.

Not really! Well perhaps to dispensationalists. So if you don't understand something you make up a tale to explain it!

 

[OldRegular]

I was placing emphasis upon Christ as possessor and secure holder of all "first fruits" which I consider the passage holds as consistent with the OT example. The first fruits would align to all that is owed and owned, all that "God has given him" and as such Christ is highly exalted and in total control of the resurrection(s).

Yes but that comma changes the meaning of the verse.

 

[agedman]

Jesus Christ had to be speaking from His human nature. There is ONE GOD, Father Son , and Holy Spirit. What one knows all know.

I disagree that Christ is ever speaking from the human form. What I do know is that within the One God, there are distinct "lines of demarcation" (for lack of a better term). Throughout Scriptures Christ is present a submissive to the Father. Even in the final act, He turns, bows and presents His bride to The Father, that the Father receive total glory and exaltation. I do not comprehend all this, but know that the Bible certainly teaches such.

Therefore, within the context of the above statement, it is not unreasonable for the Father to have knowledge that the Son does not enjoy.

Matthew 12:28, 29


Appears to me that Jesus Christ is saying:

1. The kingdom of God is come unto you.

2. Satan is bound.

Where ever Christ is there is the kingdom. When Christ was here in the earthly ministry, He (though not yet crowned King - for he was yet to be crucified) stood as the ruler of the kingdom.

Satan was not nor is bound. He came to tempt Christ, but was not bound by Christ. Not until the millennial reign.

Scripture states further:

Hebrews 2:14, 15
14. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Sounds like that old serpent is in a heap of trouble!

Who held death before Christ died on the cross? God told the enemy not to kill Job, why? Because death was held by the enemy until the cross. Now the keys of both death and hell are held by Christ.

That fits perfectly with the verses you posted.

Scripture states the following about Jesus Christ and His return:

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:31,
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Each one of the verses point to the physical return of Christ that climaxes the battles of Armageddon - as Rev 19:11 through Rev. 20:6. To place them to just prior to the great white throne, violates what takes place at the end of the millennium when the enemy is unchanged for a season - Rev 20:7 +. That is what leads to your next posting of verse.

Revelation 20:11, 12
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There is no battle, the earth and heaven pass away in a great fire, and all stand before God in judgement. However, this is AFTER the release of the enemy for "a season" at the end of the millennium. The devil is not "chained" again, but is cast along with hell and death into the lake of fire which is the Second Death.

Remember when Christ said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men unto me"?

The word draw has the force of one being drug. All will come to Christ. Some by belief, others by unbelief. All WILL bow the knee. ALL Always means ALL in the Scriptures.

So Jesus Christ will return in all the Glory of the Godhead to resurrect all the dead and render judgment. Now Scripture tells us that mortal man cannot look on the Glory of God and live. So how are there going to be mortals on earth as you dispensationalists claim?

Again, no problem. Remember the angels said, "This SAME Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." When Christ rules He doesn't change form. He is as He is, still bearing the marks - they shall look upon Him who they pierced and morn.

After the millennial reign - all are clothed in immortality just as the rich man in hell and just as John was in visiting heaven when told come on up here and let's visit, John. (old man's rendering )

1 Timothy 6:14-16
14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Look at the end (Rev 21, 22), when the new heaven and earth are exposed (I go to prepare a place for you...). What does it tell about the light? Even Christ on the transfiguration mount did not appear in such a glorified state!

It is THEN that God wipes away the tears. Oh what a time of rejoicing!!!

I will continue in another post.

 

[convicted1]

Christ rules in the MIDST of His enemies......from the heavenly Jerusalem.

:applause::applause::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

:applause::applause::thumbs::thumbs:

So ALL THINGS have at this time be put under Christ?

that this world is being run JUST the way a messianic reign would be, as per the Bible?

 

[asterisktom]

So ALL THINGS have at this time be put under Christ?

that this world is being run JUST the way a messianic reign would be, as per the Bible?

Well, JF, when do you think Jesus will "rule amidst His enemies"?

 

[beameup]

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. Ps 110:1-6

Sounds like Rev. 19 to me.

 

[asterisktom]

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. Ps 110:1-6

Sounds like Rev. 19 to me.

Sounds like Acts 2:33-35 to me:

"Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

 

[beameup]

Sounds like Acts 2:33-35 to me:

"Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

Acts 2:20 [from Peter's sermon Acts 2:14-36]
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Perhaps Josephus and the other Roman historians somehow "missed that" in AD 70?

 

[JesusFan]

Acts 20:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Perhaps Josephus and the other Roman historians somehow "missed that" in AD 70?

they will come back with" there you go again, being WOODEN Literal! Obvious that is to be strictly a metaphorical reference!"

 

[asterisktom]

Acts 2:20 [from Peter's sermon Acts 2:14-36]
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Perhaps Josephus and the other Roman historians somehow "missed that" in AD 70?

Who is talking about Josephus? I am quoting pure Scripture. Case in point:

Act 2:16 But this is [present tense] that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

All of these happen together at this time.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It is interesting that those who insist on a future fulfillment - only - for verses 19 and 20 yet insist on the very next verse (21) being present again.

Is there any indication or warrant to treat the passage this way: Present (from Peter's time), future, Present again? No, there isn't. A system is being imposed on the text.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs [Present tense].

This is an important detail. Here we are told when these miracles, wonders, signs happen - at the time Peter is speaking. They are the proof.

, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

This promise of the Holy Ghost, foretold by the OT prophet quoted is all spoken of as being fulfilled in the time of the Gospels and Acts.

Why are you bringing in Josephus anyway?

 

[OldRegular]

they will come back with" there you go again, being WOODEN Literal! Obvious that is to be strictly a metaphorical reference!"

Context, Context, Context! How essential it is.

And I see that Tom has made that point while I was thinking about it!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Acts 2:20 [from Peter's sermon Acts 2:14-36]
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Perhaps Josephus and the other Roman historians somehow "missed that" in AD 70?

You believe the moon will literally be turned into a mass of blood? What type? Human, goat, sheep, etc? Surely you see the foolishness in a strictly literal interpretation of this passage. But then, dispensationalism requires that metaphorical judgement language be taken literally; otherwise, the system implodes on itself for a lack of substance.