A little "end time" confusion (Who is leaving?)

[OldRegular]

You believe the moon will literally be turned into a mass of blood? What type? Human, goat, sheep, etc? Surely you see the foolishness in a strictly literal interpretation of this passage. But then, dispensationalism requires that metaphorical judgement language be taken literally; otherwise, the system implodes on itself for a lack of substance.

Well said!

 

[beameup]

they will come back with" there you go again, being WOODEN Literal! Obvious that is to be strictly a metaphorical reference!"

Like I said before, this reminds me of Rev 19:11-16

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Of course, all the contemporary historians of the first century (like Josephus) somehow missed "recording this event".

 

[Iconoclast]

So ALL THINGS have at this time be put under Christ?

that this world is being run JUST the way a messianic reign would be, as per the Bible?

Here is how Paul described it in 1cor15;

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Iconoclast]

Who is talking about Josephus? I am quoting pure Scripture. Case in point:

Act 2:16 But this is [present tense] that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

All of these happen together at this time.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It is interesting that those who insist on a future fulfillment - only - for verses 19 and 20 yet insist on the very next verse (21) being present again.

Is there any indication or warrant to treat the passage this way: Present (from Peter's time), future, Present again? No, there isn't. A system is being imposed on the text.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs [Present tense].

This is an important detail. Here we are told when these miracles, wonders, signs happen - at the time Peter is speaking. They are the proof.

, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

This promise of the Holy Ghost, foretold by the OT prophet quoted is all spoken of as being fulfilled in the time of the Gospels and Acts.

Why are you bringing in Josephus anyway?

This is the exact place to go, although it is note-worthy that psalm 110 is directly quoted 6x....... the dispensational error cannot deal with the reality of Joel 2-3.....this is that......because they are in a rush to look for the ten nation confederacy, the mark of the beast,and another anti-christ,rather than looking at Christ on the throne.....ruling is Kingdom in the MIDST of His enemies.....

Look up,sun moon and stars in scripture...it is used several times,for change of Goverment,or rule.

9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

8And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

 

[beameup]

You believe the moon will literally be turned into a mass of blood? What type? Human, goat, sheep, etc?

When Moses turned the Nile River into blood was it hippo blood or crocodile blood? Or perhaps fish blood? Or maybe frog blood?

 

[freeatlast]

Who is talking about Josephus? I am quoting pure Scripture. Case in point:

Act 2:16 But this is [present tense] that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

All of these happen together at this time.

?

You are not understanding what Peter is saying about Joel. He is not saying they are happening that very day (present tense). He is saying that this is the last days, (present tense continual action). The passage he quoted from Joel is only a part of the passage and he is using it to show it is now the last days, not that those things he mentioned are happening right then. The things mentioned will come to pass during during the last days but not that day and it is still the last days and they still have not happened. If you read Joel you will see this all comes about AFTER something that has not happened yet.
Verse 2:38 of Joel reads as follows;
And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

After what? Well you have to read the passages from 2:1 through 2:27 to see what those things are and they have not happened yet. Israel has not had these things happen yet, but they will in the future after Messiah returns.

 

[asterisktom]

You are not understanding what Peter is saying about Joel. He is not saying they are happening that very day (present tense). He is saying that this is the last days, (present tense continual action). The passage he quoted from Joel is only a part of the passage and he is using it to show it is now the last days, not that those things he mentioned are happening right then. The things mentioned will come to pass during during the last days but not that day and it is still the last days and they still have not happened. If you read Joel you will see this all comes about AFTER something that has not happened yet.
Verse 2:38 of Joel reads as follows;
And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

After what? Well you have to read the passages from 2:1 through 2:27 to see what those things are and they have not happened yet. Israel has not had these things happen yet, but they will in the future after Messiah returns.

Die-hard futurism. There is no point in anyone bothering you with the actual verses of Scripture.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Still future, eh? By your admission, this also would be not happening yet.

Please.

 

[asterisktom]

This is the exact place to go, although it is note-worthy that psalm 110 is directly quoted 6x....... the dispensational error cannot deal with the reality of Joel 2-3.....this is that......because they are in a rush to look for the ten nation confederacy, the mark of the beast,and another anti-christ,rather than looking at Christ on the throne.....ruling is Kingdom in the MIDST of His enemies.....

Look up,sun moon and stars in scripture...it is used several times,for change of Goverment,or rule.

Exactly. Psalm 110 is another of those passages that has great NT significance.

One of the best Bible study tools that have benefited me, if I can even call it a tool, is merely studying out how the inspired New Testament writers used the inspired Old Testament writings. Studying these out will keep a person busy for a very long time. There is such a rich gold mine in this one mode of study.

 

[freeatlast]

Die-hard futurism. There is no point in anyone bothering you with the actual verses of Scripture.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Still future, eh? By your admission, this also would be not happening yet.

Please.

Yes it is happening but it is not past. Present tense continual action not past action. The same with the rest of the verse. Last days is happening now but it is not past. It will all happen in the future just like those who call on the Lord are in the future while going on now.

And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

After what? Well you have to read the passages from 2:1 through 2:27 to see what those things are and they have not happened yet. Israel has not had these things happen yet, but they will in the future after Messiah returns.

 

[OldRegular]

Exactly. Psalm 110 is another of those passages that has great NT significance.

One of the best Bible study tools that have benefited me, if I can even call it a tool, is merely studying out how the inspired New Testament writers used the inspired Old Testament writings. Studying these out will keep a person busy for a very long time. There is such a rich gold mine in this one mode of study.

There is much truth in what you say. Unfortunately dispensationalists will not recognize the way the Old Testament is used by writers of the New Testament, rather always trying to give their "face value" interpretation dominance over the revelation of the New Testament! A similar use of Old Testament prophecy is used by James at the Jerusalem Conference:

Acts 15:13-21
13. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

In an aside: I wonder how those "Gospel of Paul" people handle those Gentiles that Peter preached to; after a little persuasion by God!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

When Moses turned the Nile River into blood was it hippo blood or crocodile blood? Or perhaps fish blood? Or maybe frog blood?

Drawing an unnatural connection between figurative judgement language & historical language only serves to weaken the credibility of your position. If you follow your hermeneutic methods to their logical conclusion, then you must also believe that the stars, most much larger than our own sun, will physically "fall" to earth at some point in time. It is this type of ridiculous thinking that led to my realization that dispensationalism is more imaginative fantasy than Biblical-based theology.
We must also conclude that since the moon has not literally turned to blood yet, then salvation has not come to men. The very next verse states that this must happen before we can be saved by calling upon Christ in faith, or do you read a pause in time or some other cryptic language between the lines?
Please explain how your system accounts for this Biblical chronology of events.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Act 2:20-21)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"
"And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring"

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Christ rules in the MIDST of His enemies......from the heavenly Jerusalem.

Yes indeed. '"Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet." For in that He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put under Him. but now we see not yet all things put under Him' (Heb 2:8). Christ is ruling, but we do not yet perceive it.

Perhaps this may be helpful.

http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/the-lord-jesus-christ-king-priest-and-judge/

Steve

 

[convicted1]

Acts 2:20 [from Peter's sermon Acts 2:14-36]
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Perhaps Josephus and the other Roman historians somehow "missed that" in AD 70?

Got a question for you Brother. When does that "great and notable day of the Lord" take place?

 

[asterisktom]

Yes indeed. '"Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet." For in that He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put under Him. but now we see not yet all things put under Him' (Heb 2:8). Christ is ruling, but we do not yet perceive it.
...
Steve

Just a comment on the part you underlined. This does not have the same force that it had in the 60s AD, when Hebrews was written. From the writer's perspective not all things were under Christ's feet. But from a Biblical post AD 70 perspective they are now. By Biblical I mean especially those cross-references on just what is meant by those terms, like 1 Cor, 15 and the OT passages from which they draw.

Christ's rule, now and then, was never a matter of visible, physical perception, but spiritual awareness.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just a comment on the part you underlined. This does not have the same force that it had in the 60s AD, when Hebrews was written. From the writer's perspective not all things were under Christ's feet. But from a Biblical post AD 70 perspective they are now. By Biblical I mean especially those cross-references on just what is meant by those terms, like 1 Cor, 15 and the OT passages from which they draw.

Christ's rule, now and then, was never a matter of visible, physical perception, but spiritual awareness.

Out of curiosity Tom, may I ask if you believe in "New Covenant" Theology?

 

[asterisktom]

Out of curiosity Tom, may I ask if you believe in "New Covenant" Theology?

Yes, I do. As far as I can tell, I adhere to NCT. Of course, I am finding that there is some variation among those who use that term. But not as much variation as those who call themselves "Reformed Baptist", which I also am.

I especially like the writings of Riesinger, particularly those that deal with the Covenants.

By way of clarification, here is an article I wrote in 2006 when I realized that I was an adherent of NCT. It is a defense of Riesinger against unfair charges leveled against him and by none other than RC Sproul's Tabletalk magazine:
http://asterisktom.xanga.com/510738968/new-covenant-theology-good-teaching-gets-a-bad-rap---and-a-bad-rep/

 

[beameup]

Got a question for you Brother. When does that "great and notable day of the Lord" take place?

Armageddon

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Quote:

Yes indeed. '"Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet." For in that He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put under Him. but now we see not yet all things put under Him' (Heb 2:8). Christ is ruling, but we do not yet perceive it.

Just a comment on the part you underlined. This does not have the same force that it had in the 60s AD, when Hebrews was written. From the writer's perspective not all things were under Christ's feet. But from a Biblical post AD 70 perspective they are now. By Biblical I mean especially those cross-references on just what is meant by those terms, like 1 Cor, 15 and the OT passages from which they draw.

Christ's rule, now and then, was never a matter of visible, physical perception, but spiritual awareness.

The writer to the Hebrews was well aware that Christ was reigning and that His reign commenced at His assension (Phil 2:8-9). But he was also aware of the situation that pertained at the time he wrote, which are very similar to what they were when the Lord Jesus prophesied and also what they have been ever since.

'Many [deceivers] shall come in My name.' True then; true now.
'Wars and rumours of wars.' True then; true now. 'But the end is not yet.'
'Nation will rise against nation.' True then; true now.
'Famines, pestilences and earthquakes.' True then; true now.'
'Many will be offended and betray one another.' True then; true now.
'Many false prophets will rise up.' True then; true now.
'And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold' True then; true now.
'But he who endures to the end shall be saved.' True then; true now.

The events of AD 70 changed nothing for those living outside of Judea. Christ was reigning then and is reigning now in the midst of [His] enemies' and it is with 'spiritual awareness' that 'we see Jesus...crowned with glory and honour...' and 'look forward to the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ' (Titus 2:13) They were looking forward to it then; we look forward to it now.

Steve

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Armageddon

Still not following your beliefs to their logical conclusions and pulling verses out of their Scriptural contexts. If that day occurs at the culmination of human history, then salvation is not yet come to man. Do you believe that God saved you when you called out to Christ in faith? If so, then your beliefs are in conflict.

 

[asterisktom]

The events of AD 70 changed nothing for those living outside of Judea.

There were actually profound changes in these years throughout the Roman Empire, just as prophesied. There was diverse massacres of Jews in various regions (3000 in Cyrene, for instance), as well general upheavals. Every major direction in the Empire had its upheavals: Boadicea, the valiant woman in Britain, the Parthians, Iberians, Italy itself being convulsed in the Year of Four Emperors.