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A little "end time" confusion (Who is leaving?)

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So KYR, you are saying that this passage refers to the removal of Israel as God's representative to the world?

It refers to the casting away & breaking off of Ro 11:15-19 (and other places).

And as such doesn't apply to any future event....

The parable contains other details, but the prophecy of it has been fulfilled.

... but was fullfilled at Christ's death with the tearing of the veil?

Not willing that any should perish, God gave them them forty years, a full generation, to repent, but she would not. I believe the final casting away/breaking off was with the coming of the Son of Man in wrath on that generation of Jews that slew Him and the destruction of their city and their temple AD70.
 
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thomas15

Well-Known Member
Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum does. And he is a premier dispie theologian. His eschatology book Footsteps of the Messiah argues clearly for a pretrib rapture in Matt. 24.

On page 640, we read: "Within premillennial and pretribulational circles, the majority view today is that this passage (matt 24) is speaking of the Second Coming rather than the Rapture."

Dr. Fruchtenbaum then discusses (pg 640-641) both arguments in detail. I personally disagree with him on this but he makes a compelling and well reasoned argument. He also doesn't throw rocks at the majority view.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
On page 640, we read: "Within premillennial and pretribulational circles, the majority view today is that this passage (matt 24) is speaking of the Second Coming rather than the Rapture."

Dr. Fruchtenbaum then discusses (pg 640-641) both arguments in detail. I personally disagree with him on this but he makes a compelling and well reasoned argument. He also doesn't throw rocks at the majority view.

isn't this discussion within our Dispy camp?

As there would seem to be little BIBLICAL support for either post Mil/pretierist?

Would see pre Mil and some A Mil only pretty much suported?
 

thomas15

Well-Known Member
isn't this discussion within our Dispy camp?

As there would seem to be little BIBLICAL support for either post Mil/pretierist?

Would see pre Mil and some A Mil only pretty much suported?

Yes, I agree with you, it is an in-house discussion. And even with regard to the A Mil position, the only way to get there is through the covenant position which also suffers from a lack of Biblical support.

Really, it comes down taking the words of the Bible seriously within a historical context and recongnizing literary devices for what they are. Put 10 covenant A Mills in a room and get 10 different interpretations on a particular passage. Why is it that those opposed to dispensationalism try to make the case that because there is some amount of disagreement among dispies, their position must be correct?
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree with you, it is an in-house discussion. And even with regard to the A Mil position, the only way to get there is through the covenant position which also suffers from a lack of Biblical support.

Really, it comes down taking the words of the Bible seriously within a historical context and recongnizing literary devices for what they are. Put 10 covenant A Mills in a room and get 10 different interpretations on a particular passage. Why is it that those opposed to dispensationalism try to make the case that because there is some amount of disagreement among dispies, their position must be correct?
I disagree big time. I am Amill and not a covanter. Just as not all dispos are pre-tribbers. So it is not the only way to "get there." That's why you later qualified it as "10 covenant A Mills" [sic].

And it only lacks biblical support in your opinion. We can just as easily turn that accusation on its head and direct it towards you. So that kind of pontification gets us nowhere.

Lastly, I take issue w/ your last paragraph on all grounds. We do take the Bible seriously, very seriously in fact. We have a high view of its historical context, and I would argue that in some cases (mine partly) that the historical situation is often the deciding factor in interpretation. I would also say that literary devices are given more credence in the Amill camp. Just b/c some Amills disgree does not negate the fundamentals of the system. And as you point out (ironically or paradoxically), neither does disagreement discount a system. So that is a non sequitur.

If you want to have a serious discussion about the Amill view apart from covenant theology, let me know. I can show you how I arrive at the continuity and lack of need for a restored national, political Israel based on history and literary devices. I will also add a canonical, theological approach to finish the hermeneutical sequence of behind the text, in the text, and in front of the text (the latter being the one you left out).

However, if this thread was only for dispies (I didn't see that demarcation anywhere), I will stop posting here and we can discuss elsewhere. My apologies. But I have done a lot of studies in the dispo camp being a former, ardent dispo. I have the credentials to prove it being a published writer in a dispensational theological journal and begun a PhD program w/ a dissertation related to a dispensational issue.
 

Batt4Christ

Member
Site Supporter
This morning the preacher was preaching about money. (new building campaign coming up) During some of the more unapplicable to me portions of the sermon I got to reading the scripture around the topic passage (which he stretched a bit imo to fit).

While this topic is great - I am just as interested in the text that you say the preacher stretched to fit....
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
So here's the question: Who is leaving. Are Christians going to be raptured out as suggested else where in scripture OR are the "tares" leaving as described in this passage? How do we reconcile these two seemingly conflicting views of the end of the world?

The idea that Christians are going to be "raptured out" is nowhere taught in Scripture. There will be a general resurrection and a general judgment as stated in John 5:28, 29 and as supported by the Scripture in the OP.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The idea that Christians are going to be "raptured out" is nowhere taught in Scripture. There will be a general resurrection and a general judgment as stated in John 5:28, 29 and as supported by the Scripture in the OP.

:thumbsup::applause::applause::thumbsup:
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have two problems with the amillennial thinking.

"Our Father, Who art in heaven, Hallowed by They Name.

Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

If there were no millennial reign, then Jesus would not speak so clearly that the will of God will be in a kingdom on this earth and that the will of God will be done just as it is in heaven.

Also, God will allow no one an excuse at the judgment. No one will be able to say, but if I had just been around while Christ ruled, I wouldn't have been an unbeliever. No, man failed no matter in what "economy" God presented to man.

A problem with the pre-millennial thinking is the rapture is all over the place. There are those who consider the rapture takes place before the tribulation, and then some time of continued deceiving until the tribulation, those who think the rapture starts the tribulation, those who would indicate the rapture is after the first 3.5 years of tribulation. At least they all hold to a literal rapture.

I have problem in the Pre-teristic thinking - totally.

For me, I am wondering which will happen first. Me being raised or me being raised. :)

No matter what, I will spend eternity with He who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Until then, I am a pre-trib rapture, with a real earthly kingdom millennial reign of Christ.

As the Scriptures say, "But every man in his own order: Christ, the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Christ - raised to heaven to return, the first fruits - those of the rapture, they that are Christ's at his coming - the return of Christ at the millennial reign.

I consider this the best "scheme" if for no other reason than I find it the most consistent with the total of Old and New Testament and the most in agreement with the Spirit God gave me.

But, I have no problem with others thinking and attempting to defend their positions on this mater. However, I wouldn't be part of an assembly in which anything but a Pre-trib view was held and taught.
 

beameup

Member
The idea that Christians are going to be "raptured out" is nowhere taught in Scripture. There will be a general resurrection and a general judgment as stated in John 5:28, 29 and as supported by the Scripture in the OP.

The Gentile Bride of Christ was revealed to Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles.
Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:25
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Col 1:26

The Gentile Bride of Christ will be removed from Earth prior to Israel, once again, becoming God's central focus in world affairs.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:51-52
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thes 4:17
NOTE: Jesus does not touch the earth. He does not "return" to the earth.

Paul tells us that this MYSTERY is not found in the O.T. (or the Gospels either, for that matter).
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Gentile Bride of Christ was revealed to Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles.
Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:25
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Col 1:26

The Gentile Bride of Christ will be removed from Earth prior to Israel, once again, becoming God's central focus in world affairs.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:51-52
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thes 4:17
NOTE: Jesus does not touch the earth. He does not "return" to the earth.

Paul tells us that this MYSTERY is not found in the O.T. (or the Gospels either, for that matter).

I can agree with this - for that is how I have read it, too.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
The Gentile Bride of Christ was revealed to Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles.
Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:25
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Col 1:26

The Gentile Bride of Christ will be removed from Earth prior to Israel, once again, becoming God's central focus in world affairs.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:51-52
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thes 4:17
NOTE: Jesus does not touch the earth. He does not "return" to the earth.

Paul tells us that this MYSTERY is not found in the O.T. (or the Gospels either, for that matter).

Just how many "Brides" does Jesus Christ have? I believe that the Mormons believe that God is a polygamist but I had not heard that Christians were.

The passage you quote from 1 Thessalonians is not the "rapture". And there is no Gospel of Paul!
 
Just how many "Brides" does Jesus Christ have? I believe that the Mormons believe that God is a polygamist but I had not heard that Christians were.

The passage you quote from 1 Thessalonians is not the "rapture". And there is no Gospel of Paul!


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
The idea that Christians are going to be "raptured out" is nowhere taught in Scripture. There will be a general resurrection and a general judgment as stated in John 5:28, 29 and as supported by the Scripture in the OP.



:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Dispensationalists teach a 1,007 years between the two resurrections. The church is raptured out, the dead in Christ rise, and are gone. Then the seven years tribulation, with the first 3.5 of it being trib, and after the anti-christ is revealed, and destroyed, then 3.5 years of great trib. At the end of this, Jesus comes with His saints, and fights, and defeats satan. Then at the end of His "reign" here, the dead in sin come forth at the GWT judgement, and are sentenced to the lake of fire. The problem I have with this is that when Jesus came forth from the grave that third morning, He defeated satan.

1 Cor. 15:54-58
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Now, in the amil, you have a general resurrection, where Jesus comes in the Cloud. The dead in Christ shall rise first. Those who are alive and remain, shall be changed in the moment and twinkling of an eye, and they too, shall join Jesus in the cloud. Then the dead in sin also rise, are rendered guilty, and cast into the lake of fire.

1 Thess. 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Matthew 31-46

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Here, you can see where Jesus gives the Sheep and the goats their reward, at the same place and time. So, I think the amill position is the way to go. But, if you are unsure, read, study, and pray that God gives it to you, and not man.


Any dispies care to answer this post???
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
While this topic is great - I am just as interested in the text that you say the preacher stretched to fit....

I quoted the text in the OP. I don't remember rightly how he applied it and no longer seem to have my notes on the subject. However, that was the text and he was preaching a sermon designed to raise money for the new building project.
 

freeatlast

New Member
Originally Posted by convicted1
Dispensationalists teach a 1,007 years between the two resurrections. The church is raptured out, the dead in Christ rise, and are gone. Then the seven years tribulation, with the first 3.5 of it being trib, and after the anti-christ is revealed, and destroyed, then 3.5 years of great trib. At the end of this, Jesus comes with His saints, and fights, and defeats satan. Then at the end of His "reign" here, the dead in sin come forth at the GWT judgement, and are sentenced to the lake of fire. The problem I have with this is that when Jesus came forth from the grave that third morning, He defeated satan.

1 Cor. 15:54-58
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Now, in the amil, you have a general resurrection, where Jesus comes in the Cloud. The dead in Christ shall rise first. Those who are alive and remain, shall be changed in the moment and twinkling of an eye, and they too, shall join Jesus in the cloud. Then the dead in sin also rise, are rendered guilty, and cast into the lake of fire.

1 Thess. 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Matthew 31-46

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Here, you can see where Jesus gives the Sheep and the goats their reward, at the same place and time. So, I think the amill position is the way to go. But, if you are unsure, read, study, and pray that God gives it to you, and not man.

Any dispies care to answer this post???

You have a lot in there so let me narrow it down and you can add to it if you like.
Are you saying there is never a rapture?
 

beameup

Member
I can agree with this - for that is how I have read it, too.

Failure to recognize the distinct difference between:
the Bride of Christ (Gentile, with a "remnant" of Jews)
and the Adulterous Wife of Jehovah (genetic Israelites)
leads to all sorts of confused and misguided teaching.

Paul, THE Apostle to the Gentiles:
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
- 2 Cor 11:2 BRIDE OF CHRIST

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall
salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
- Rom 11:11

Genetic Israel, the Adulterous Wife of Jehovah, has "stumbled"... temporarily.
It will take the full impact of the Tribulation for genetic Israel to "come to their senses" and REPENT.
 
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