A-millennialism still reigns supreme -

Iam 100% argee with you Deafposttrib that is true fact.

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

Oldreg, I will answer any eschatological or historical question you can give me. I thought I have answered everything.

Trailblazer, I see you have also just cut and run when I posted what I said I would. You wanted their testimony, I gave it to you. I have more if you still need it. Prove me wrong that not all amills are cowards.

 

DeafPosttrib: " ... says nothing about 'a thousand years'."

DeafPosttrib: "I rather stick on God's Word than listening what men saying according Colossians 2:8."

YOur two statements contradict each other.
There is no scriputre that lets you go around condemning
God for not puting the 1,000 years in but four verses.

 

Trailblazer, I have been enjoying my t-shirt during the winter here in Central Florida. I hate snow. Have at it. Don't eat the yellow kind, it isn't lemon.

 

Adherents of Darbyism, Scofieldism, or dispensationalism, whichever they prefer, have been asked repeatedly on this thread to quote one verse of Scripture that teaches a pretribulation rapture. They are unable to do so.

 

OldRegular: "Adherents of Darbyism, Scofieldism, or dispensationalism,
whichever they prefer, have been asked repeatedly on this thread
to quote one verse of Scripture that teaches a pretribulation rapture. "

We told you, but alas:
Luke 19:44d (KJV1611);
" ... thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

-----------------------------------------
I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
--------------------------------------------

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, i'll still hope in the pretribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
------------------------------------------------

 

Adherents of Darbyism, Scofieldism, or dispensationalism, whichever they prefer, have been asked repeatedly on this thread to quote one verse of Scripture that teaches a pretribulation rapture. They are still unable to do so.

 

Tee Hee. Yes, i accept your admission of defeat.
You will never be able to beat an army of arguments
with a personal dis of the General.

BTW, i was a Christian 30 years before i head
about Darby. I am a Christite NOT a Darbyite.

 

The above outline I believe to be in error in some of the assumptions. It depends largely on the understanding that "wrath" refers to the tribulation period. My understanding is that "wrath" or the wrath of God refers to judgement day in most if not all of the places it is found in the Bible. Understanding it that way, the same passage could be used to indicate that the time of the rapture is post-trib immediately prior to the judgement.

On the scripture "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first". The falling away, I think we agree, is a reference to the tribulation, but this only shows that the rapture of the church occurs after the start of the tribulation perid, it does not indicate how much of the tribulation period passes prior to the rapture.

Look at Matthew 14:21,22
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened."

This reference to the great tribulation is referring to the 7 year tribulation period. Note the evidence that the church remains in the statement "except those days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened". Who is the elect? The Christians. It is not unbelievers who He is referring to here. The elect is a clear reference to the church.

 

Ed

You can Tee Hee all you want but the stuff you posted above proves absolutely nothing about the pre trib rapture.

You take an obscure passage out of Daniel and assume that proves a seven year tribulation. It proves nothing about any 7 year period of tribulation in some far distant future. It is in fact talking in part about the end of the sacrificial system since the veil of the temple will be split when Messiah is killed and the way opened into the Holy Place. You then take a passage where the Apostle Paul is trying to tell the Saints at Thessalonica that the resurrection has not yet occurred and assume that is a pre trib rapture.

Your time line for the so called rapture and tribulation has been poated ad nauseam and is simply a figment of someones, I hope not yours, imagination. The fact that you bought the Darby/Scofield error for 30 years before you were aware of its source does not speak well of you. By the way when were you first exposed to the Scofield bible?

If you were following Jesus Christ as you claim then why not trust His very clear prophecy of John 5:28, 29:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The passage is straightforward. It doesn't take a theological giant to understand it. Sadly you prefer to take the words of someone like Scofield rather than the clear teaching of Scripture.

As far as 90 % of Christians believing in the pre trib rapture you are thankfully mistaken. Not even 90% of those who post on this forum believe in a pre trib rapture. The vast majority of Christians realize that the Scofield bible is not inspired Scripture but teaches a false, if not heretical doctrine.

I say heretical because eschatology is not the only error in Darbyism. Frankly I could care less about your erroneous views on the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The most serious error in Darbyism/Scofieldism/dispensationalism is the teaching that Jesus Christ came to establish an earthly Messianic Kingdom, failed to do so and established the parenthesis Church instead. This erroneous, if not heretical, teaching calls into question the sovereignty of God and makes a liar out of God the Son, Jesus Christ, since he claimed in John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. If God the Son was sent to establish an earthly Messianic Kingdom and failed to do so He could not have truthfully made the statement: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Thankfully classic dispensationalism is a dying doctrine. A movement called progressive dispensationalism is already denying the claim of Darby/Scofield/Chafer/Ryrie/ Walvoord that Jesus Christ came to establish an earthly Messianic kingdom, failed, and established the Church for which He died [Acts 20:28] as an after thought.

 

OldRegular: "Your time line for the so called rapture and tribulation has been poated ad nauseam and is simply a figment of someones, I hope not yours, imagination."

It was not my imagination. It came to me directly from the Holy Spirit. Please don't dis the Holy Spirit. Thank you. Please don't dis the Holy Plan of God for the Ages. Thank you.

BTW, my time line is much better to have to defend than yours.
which one are you trying to defend?

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here

 

I trust compelete this prophecy. HOwever, you identify it as "veryh clear prophecy" and you missed what it says. Your problems is you don't know what "hour" means here. It is in the dictionary, if you happen to have a one. "Hour" in prophetic writing means 'the appropriate time.

Here is a writing given to me by the Holy Spirit about 8 years ago, maybe ten. This is a summary of scripture to preserve Baptist Board bandwidth.
------------------------------------
\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Oldreg has placed his entire hope of amill theology in two verses. If he interpreted the text properly, he wouldn't have any more excused to be amill. Frankly, he prefers a lie.

You haven't answered any of the questions I give to you. I have answered every question you have asked me. Now, who is the ignorant one here?

As for the John 5 text, allow me to point out your flawed idea.

I have three children. Currently, their ages are 3, 1, and 3 months.

I can say the following: the hour is coming when all my children will start school.

Now, you could take this two different ways:

1. They will all start school at the same time. This would be a valid view of my statement. However, I am not from Arkansas, so it doesn't work.

2. They will each start school in their appointed time. That is, each of my children will start when I say they will.

Now, back to Christs' statement.

He said that the hour is coming when all who are in the grave will be raised. The just will inherit glory and the unjust will inherit wrath.

You could take this text TWO different ways. You have chosen option one. I have chosen option two. I have no problem texts anywhere in all the Bible. You have to deal with many problem texts. To give you a few texts: Matt. 13, I Thes. 4-5, and Rev. 20.

Each group will be raised in their appointed time. The Just will inherit glory and the wicked will inherit wrath.

Now, I have just cut your legs off with half my brain tied behind my back. Stop being a heretical gnostic and reject catholic eschatology.

 

Wow! You've admitted that you have a brain. It's too bad we have rarely seen you use it when posting on this board.

There is plenty of proof against premillennialism, DD. It's called the Bible. You might try reading the whole Bible instead of selected verses.

 

Ken, living in arkansas isn't a valid excuse for insane posts.

 

Neither is living in "middle earth", wherever that is.

Have a blessed day, brother Daniel.

 

The clearest and most significant passage in all of Scripture teaching a general resurrection is the direct teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally. The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word hora and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:

1 a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2 the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
3 a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
4 any definite time, point of time, moment.

Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word hora, obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

Matthew 26:40, KJV
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

Matthew 27:45, KJV
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Jesus Christ in the passage from the Gospel of John [5:28, 29] teaches that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment. I understand full well that the 20th chapter of the Book of Revelation speaks of a first resurrection, which implies a second. Keep in mind, however, that the language of Revelation is apocalyptic or highly symbolic, while the language in the passage from John is not, indicating that a literal understanding of the passage from John is appropriate. However, I do believe in two resurrections, the first resurrection was unquestionably that of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul in his sermon before King Agrippa while imprisoned at Caesaera declared:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection, His Resurrection, are those who have undergone spiritual resurrection [John 5:25; Ephesians 2:1-7] and have been justified through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age.

The Apostle Peter in his second epistle to the Church sheds additional light on the events surrounding the return of Christ is 2 Peter 2:10-13,

2 Peter 3:10-13, KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In this passage of Scripture, Peter is writing to Christians. What Peter describes must be interpreted as a single event in time. Readers of this passage are not told to look for the disappearance of the Church, to look again seven years later for the return of Christ, and to look again 1000 years later for the final defeat of Satan and the creation of a new heavens and earth; but they are told to look for day of the Lord or the day of God which will come as a thief in the night and in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The phrase come as a thief in the night should be understood as follows:

1. A thief comes unexpectedly, not when the householder is expecting him.
2. Similarly the Lord indicated that His return would be unexpected, teaching: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh [Matthew 24:44].

Note also that the phrase come as a thief in the night is generally understood, by all viewpoints, as the return of Christ in which, as the Apostle Paul wrote, the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [1 Thessalonians 4:16,17].

The Apostle Paul in his defense before Felix, the Roman governor in Caesaera [Acts 24:10ff], also declares that there shall be a resurrection of both the just and unjust.

Acts 24:14,15, KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

In the passage above resurrection is singular, not plural. There will be one general resurrection and judgment. That there will be a general judgment is shown by the events depicted in the Book of Revelation following the sound of the seventh and last trumpet.

Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

We note from Verse 18 above:
1. The events described occur at the sound of the seventh and last trumpet.
2. There will be a judgment. This judgment is described as thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
3. Note that rewards are given to the Saints while those who would destroy the earth are destroyed.

It is true that in the passage from 1 Thessalonians Paul does say the dead in Christ shall rise first. However, he is writing to the Saints at Thessalonica who were concerned about the fate of those who died prior to the return of Jesus Christ. That the Apostle allays their concern is shown by examining the full passage concerning the resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, KJV
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We see that Paul is simply teaching that Jesus Christ will bringing the souls of the deceased Saints with Him when He returns and that the bodies of dead believers shall be resurrected before live believers are changed. This passage says nothing about a secret rapture, rather we see that Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. That trump of God is the seventh and last trumpet as shown in the above passage from Revelation, in 1 Corinthians 15:50-58, and in Matthew 24:29-31.

I can find no verse of Scripture that teaches that the Church will be removed from the earth prior to any great tribulation and no one on this thread has been able to provide one. It seems to me that the concept of the secret rapture of the Church refutes the teaching of Jesus Christ concerning the triumph of the Church. When Jesus Christ announced the Church, He said:

Matthew 16:17-18, KJV
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus Christ will build His Church and the gates of hell or hades will not defeat it. Before His ascension Jesus Christ presented the great commission saying:

Matthew 28:16-20, KJV
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

This passages teaches the triumph of the Church, not its removal in a secret rapture. Jesus Christ consistently teaches that His followers, the Church, will suffer tribulation on this earth. Nowhere does He teach that they would escape tribulation. In fact He encourages them with these words:

John 16:33, KJV
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Paul writes in a similar vein to the Church at Rome.

Romans 8:35-37, KJV
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

The history of God’s people throughout the Bible is not that they will escape tribulation. Rather the history is one of suffering. If the history of God’s people is one of suffering it is also that God does not abandon His people but is with them during their suffering. Frequently, suffering of God’s people is the result of their own sin, but often the only explanation for their suffering is that God in His sovereign purpose allows it, even as Jesus Christ teaches His disciples in the following passage:

John 9:2,3, KJV
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

In summary:

1. The Church, as witness to the salvation of God, will remain on earth until the return of Jesus Christ and will endure whatever tribulation God allows. That tribulation may increase in intensity as the end approaches.
2. At a time known only to the Triune God, Jesus Christ will return in all the power and glory of the Godhead, bringing with Him the souls of the dead in Christ.
3. There will be a general resurrection of both the just and the unjust, consistent with Biblical teachings that the dead in Christ shall rise first.
4. The risen dead in Christ and the transformed believers will join the Lord Jesus Christ in the air where the union of the souls of the dead in Christ and their resurrected bodies will occur. The glory Church, the Church triumphant, the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem, will then accompany the Lord Jesus Christ to the earth [Revelation 21:2].
5. At this time the Great White Throne judgment [Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 20:11-15] will occur.
6. As the consequence of the judgment the true believers, the elect of God, will enjoy eternity in the new heavens and the new earth in the presence of the Triune God.
7. As the further consequence of the judgment Satan and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire, forever separated from the glory of God.

 

OldRegular,

Well saying. Amen.

DD,

You saying amillennialism is a heretic teaching & gnostic. Then telling us, why do you think it is heretic & gnostic.

Forget Roman Catholic, forget St. Augustine, forget Oriegon(First Century Alexnadria teacher). Forget Reformers.

We have to focus upon God's Word, what it saith.

Not necesccary to named it "amillennial", rather to saying it more safer, that the Bible teaches us, the kingdom is an eternality, it have no end. Daniel chapter 7 teaching us, the kingdom have no end.

I realized premillennialism doctrine have lot of holes and errors. There are so much verses in the Bible are conflict with premill. For example - Matthew 13:28-30; 39-42 do not teaching on premill; Matt. 25:31-46 do not teaching on premill; John 5:27-29 do not teaching on premill; John 6:39,40,44,& 54 do not teaching on premill; 2 Thess. 1:7-9 do not teaching on premill; and more.....

Premillennialism stresses God have two different programs for "Israel" & "Church" in the end times, ans it teaches there is distiction of Israel & Church in the end times.

But, Ephesians chapter 2 teaches us, Calvary now reconciled all together unity into one at once forever and ever, never be spearated again.

Some disps use 1 Cor. 10:32 for "prove" there are three groups support dispensationalism doctrine. But, the context of 1 Corinthians chapter 10 talking about do not offend groups' custom, respect their custom. That chapter have do nothing with dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism was not yet existed among Churches till 19th Century. Early Church taught Calvary already reconciled both Jews and Gentiles togther unity into one at once. Even, Early Church believed only one future coming of Christ at the end of the world.

The teaching of pretribulationism makes look so difficult and complex. Because Bible does not show clear teaching of rapture will be occur 3 1/2 year or 7 year earlier before second coming. This doctrine is man-making doctrine, also, it is only 170 years old.

I rather follow what God's Word saying than what we listening to today's modern teachers - Colossians 2:8.

Premill stresses Revelation 20:3-5 "a thousand years" is "evidence" of premillennialism doctrine that we shall reign with Christ for 1,000 years after the second coming.

This week, I keep my word, that I will make post on "thousand" with verses, which one is tell 'literal' or 'figurative'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!