A-millennialism still reigns supreme -

OldRegular: "The clearest and most significant passage in all of Scripture teaching a general resurrection is the direct teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:"

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If it is simple as written, then why do you insist on adding to it to read like this?

John 5:28,29, (OldRegular Version):
28 Marvel not at this: for the 60-minute hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice at the same time,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Come on, Revelation 20:5 says the resurrections of the just come before the 1,000 years, the resurrection of the unjust comes after the 1,000 years. Somehow you have to make an 'hora' at least 1,000 years long. I do it by selecting the defintiion of 'hora' as 'the appropriate time'. NOte also that the 1,000 years is called a day in 2 Peter 3. 'Day' means in prophetic writing 'the appointed time'. In God's economy 'day' = 'hour'.

 

Topic: A-millennialism still reigns supreme

DeafPosttrib: "I rather follow what God's Word saying than what we listening to today's modern teachers - Colossians 2:8."

Ah the sweet sound of taps on a-millennialism.

Translation of what what DPT said:

I can't argue against your main premise,
i can't argue against your minor premises.
I can't argue against your your proof texts.
I'll hide behind my misunderstanding of Col 2:8

Col 2:8 (KJV1611 edition):
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoile you through Philosophie and vaine deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

Get used to it. YOur understanding of this scripture is in error. How vain to think your philosophy of Christ is better than another's philosophy of Chirst. This verse does NOT read: DeafPosttrib's understanding of the scripture is better than Ed's understanding of the scripture. We it so, you would be able to demolish in debate my main premise: Jesus is going to come get we of the church BEFORE THE TRIBULATION DAY. DPT can't even figure out the difference between 'Tribualtion' the time period and 'tribualtion' the condition. IF your verse is read right, you should be able to defuse all my minor promices from the scripture. COme on, get past your prideful understanding of Col 2:8 and get into the debate. I'm certainly in no hurry , Brother DPT, like you, i have to work for a living.

I note in the KJV1611 the capital 'P' on 'Philosophie' and the small 'p' on philosophy in the KJV1769.

 

OldRegular: "At this time the Great White Throne judgment [Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 20:11-15] will occur."

These two judgements are different.
As i note in my eight-year old writing which follows.
These two judgements are called here #4 and #5.
Please show from scripture how the WHO
WHEN
WHERE
WHY
HOW
WHAT
are the same. Or, failing that, please show from scripture that
my who, when, where, why, how, and what are in error

------------------------

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

EE

You apparently did not understand it the first time so I will repeat it, this time with a little more emphasis:

The clearest and most significant passage in all of Scripture teaching a general resurrection is the direct teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the HOUR is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally. The word translated hour is from the Greek word hora and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:

1 a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2 the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
3 a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
4 any definite time, point of time, moment.

Now it is certain from Thayers definition of the Greek word hora that it could not possibly mean 1007 years or even 7 years.

Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word hora, obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

Matthew 26:40, KJV
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour [hora]]?

Matthew 27:45, KJV
45 Now from the sixth hour [hora] there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour [hora].

Jesus Christ in the passage from the Gospel of John [5:28, 29] teaches that in the same hour [hora], this brief, specific period of time, ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment.

I understand full well that the 20th chapter of the Book of Revelation speaks of a first resurrection, which implies a second. Keep in mind, however, that the language of Revelation is apocalyptic or highly symbolic, while the language in the passage from John is not, indicating that a literal understanding of the passage from John is appropriate. However, I do believe in two resurrections, the first resurrection was unquestionably that of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul in his sermon before King Agrippa while imprisoned at Caesaera declared:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection, His Resurrection, are those who have undergone spiritual resurrection [John 5:25; Ephesians 2:1-7] and have been justified through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age.

Not that it will make any difference to the followers of Darbyism/Scofieldism/classic or ultra dispensationalism since they don't believe the Bible anyhow but according to John F. Walvoord the Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 refutes the pre trib rapture.

John F. Walvoord, the preeminent dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]. Before presenting Walvoord’s remarks concerning this question it is worthwhile to consider the definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000.

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

“If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured before end-time events? it becomes very important to define the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or saints in general. In prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot.

 

I am still waiting for adherents of Darbyism, Scofieldism, classic, or ultra dispensationalism, whichever they prefer, to quote one verse of Scripture that teaches a pretribulation rapture. They are apparently unable to do so.

 

Matthew 20:6 And about the eleventh hour [hora] he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
Matthew 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour [hora], they received every man a penny.
Matthew 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour [hora], and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour [hora] knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour [hora] your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour [hora] as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour [hora] that he is not aware of,

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour [hora] wherein the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour [hora]?

Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour [hora] is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Matthew 26:55 In that same hour [hora] said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the hour [hora].

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour [hora] Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

Wow, Brother Daniel David, that was right on page four and then on page 16 he wants to talk about the secret rapture again.

Every time you have him on the run he trys to demolish the 'secret rapture' strawman again. Practice makes perfect Unfortunately his a-mill straw house suffers everytime he burns another 'secret rapture' strawman.

 

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

Why don't you do mow down your 'secret rapture' that nobody here believes in. You are real good at it

 

Mark 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour [hora] is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour [hora], and they crucified him.

Mark 15:33 And when the sixth hour [hora] was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour [hora].

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour [hora] Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

Luke 7:21 And in that same hour [hora] he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

Luke 10:21 In that hour [hora] Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour [hora] what ye ought to say.

Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour [hora] the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour [hora] when ye think not.

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour [hora] when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour [hora] sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Luke 22:14 And when the hour [hora] was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

Luke 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour [hora], and the power of darkness.

Luke 22:59 And about the space of one hour [hora] after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean
.
Luke 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour [hora], and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour [hora].

Luke 24:33 And they rose up the same hour [hora], and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

 

John 5:28,29, (OldRegular Version):
28 Marvel not at this: for the 60-minute hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice at the same time,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Of course, 'hour' can mean '60-minutes', for example '9th hour' means 6AM+9 = 3PM.

Verse 29 speaks of two groups of people, which are in two different resurrectios as told by Revelation 20:4 and nearby verses.

 

John 4:23 But the hour [hora] cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 4:52 Then enquired he of them the hour [hora] when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour [hora] the fever left him.
John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour [hora], in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour [hora] is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour [hora] is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 7:30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour [hora] was not yet come.

John 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour [hora]r was not yet come.

John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour [hora] is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour [hora]: but for this cause came I unto this hour [hora].

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour [hora] was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because herhour [hora] is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

John 16:32 Behold, the hour [hora] cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour [hora] is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the hour [hora] hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

John 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour [hora] that disciple took her unto his own home.

 

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

Why don't you do mow down your 'secret rapture' that nobody here believes in. You are real good at it </font>[/QUOTE]I am still waiting for adherents of Darbyism, Scofieldism, classic, or ultra dispensationalism, whichever they prefer, to quote one verse of Scripture that teaches a pretribulation rapture. They are apparently unable to do so.

 

EE

Is your defense of Darbyism/Scofieldism/classic or ultra dispensationalism so weak that you must misrepresent what I state. My statement regarding the hour in John 5:28 is as follows:

"Jesus Christ in the passage from the Gospel of John [5:28, 29] teaches that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth."

You totally misrepresent Revelation 20:4. There is no mention of bodies only souls.

 

EE

Now I know the source of your problem. You are looking on the net instead of in the Bible!

 

Oldreg, I already explained John 5 for you. You just chose to ignore it. I don't wonder why.

The rapture is something that comes from a theological understanding of a multiplicity of texts.

1 Thes. 4 clearly teaches a rapture. However, the timing of the rapture isn't discussed until a few verses later in chapter 5.

Paul says in verse 1:

Now as to the TIMES and the epochs...

Okay, so Paul is about to address the timing of the rapture.

Verse 3:

While they are saying, 'Peace and safety!' then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

Okay, sounds alot like what Christ said in Matthew 24 about labor pains. Further, Paul says that the destruction will come upon THEM.

Verse 9:

For God has not destined US for wrath, but for obtaining salvation (deliverance) through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, destruction and wrath for THEM. Deliverance for US.

Even amill theology teaches an imminent rapture. What they deny is that anything takes place after that event. Get your facts straight. Remember what I told you about presenting your own view better than you? Well, don't make me do it.

 

OldRegular: "You totally misrepresent Revelation 20:4. There is no mention of bodies only souls."


From souls Strongs G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Souls on earth generally have bodies (in fact, i know of no Bible exception).

Revelation 20 is speaking of a physical 1,000 year period on earth when Satan is bound. For those who don't read newspapers and thinks that Satan presently is bound -- pttttttb !

 

It is so sad the way the followers of Darbism/Scofieldism/dispensationalism twist Scripture attempting to dig themselves out of the pit they are in.

2 Peter 3:8 tells us But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You are tragically mistaken in saying that this passage says "1,000 years is called a day". The message of this passage is that time does not exist with God. Time is something God created for the benefit of man. God exists eternally, there is no such thing as time with God.

Where in Scripture do you find the definition that "'Day' means in prophetic writing 'the appointed time'" or that "In God's economy 'day' = 'hour'". I know, I will never get an answer! But lets make the ridiculous assumption that you are correct. How would John 5:28, 29 read?

28 Marvel not at this: for the appointed time is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

No matter how you try to twist it all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That is what is called a general resurrection and judgment.

 

Perhaps the passage that states the souls were on earth was omitted from my array of Bibles. Could you please quote that passage that states these souls were on earth? I would certainly appreciate it. I seem to have a hard time getting Scripture quoted by the Darby/Scofield/dispensational crowd.

Also just in case you missed it Jesus Christ tells us in the following passage that He has bound the strong man, Satan.

Matthew 12:24-29
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

I do hope your Bible contains this passage.

 

I am still waiting for adherents of Darbyism/Scofieldism/classic dispensationalism/ultra dispensationalism, whichever they prefer, to quote just one verse of Scripture that teaches a pretribulation rapture. They are apparently unable to do so.