A-millennialism still reigns supreme -

It is so sad the way the followers of Darbism/Scofieldism/dispensationalism twist Scripture attempting to dig themselves out of the pit they are in.

2 Peter 3:8 tells us But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You are tragically mistaken in saying that this passage says "1,000 years is called a day". The message of this passage is that time does not exist with God. Time is something God created for the benefit of man. God exists eternally, there is no such thing as time with God. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, that is what 2 Peter 3:8 ;means.

I was speaking of 2 Peter 3:10. The 1,000 year reign of Jesus on a physical throne in a physical Jerusalem - the 1,000 years is bolded:

2Pe 3:10 (KJV1611):
But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a great noise, and the Elements shall melt with feruent heate, the earth also and the works that are therin shalbe burnt vp.

I found the definitions of 'day' and 'hour' in my dictionary. I compared them to the context in which they appear. The meaning of 'day' is 'the appointed time' (#8 in my dictionary); the meaning of 'hour' is 'the appointed time' (#2 in my dictionary).

'The appointed time' = 'The apointed time' so
'day' = 'hour'. But i'm a dispensationalist. l "Dispensation' refers to stewarship or the economy. The Dispensations of God are the economy of God. So i say, and rightly so: in the economy of God, 'hour' = 'day'. And the day is coming when God's judgment will rain down this earth BUT NOT ON THE GONE Christians.
Not all judgement will come done on one 24-hour day. Not all of God's judgement will rain down in one 60-minute hour. But God's judgement is inescapable. The Christians will be judged (rewarded) in heaven while the Tribualtion Day Judgement is poured on mankind.

I used to think it was neat that God would get even with evil men (after taking the good folk to heaven with him). But that was before 1964. In 1964 was the time that the world had enough nuclear weapons to destroy themesevles. God must intervene else the world will destroy itself. The plans of God include a way of saving a maximum number of Jews (the mostly Gentile Christians will be GONE) in the Tribulation Day Judgement.

 

You totally missed it.

It is a theological error to base your man made philosophy upon one and only one misunderstood parable.

Newspaper headlines from the physical Millinnial Kingdom (Satan bound):

Workplace Pilferage Reduced 34% This Year in Africa

Domestic Squabble in Dakar Setteled by local Judge

Newspaper headlines from the Evil Age (Ga 1:4) in which we live (Satan loosed):

Baby Raped to death in Eastern Oklahoma - Police have no leads.

1,200 Additional Teen Sex Slaves Captured in Sudan in 2004

Satan is roaming about seeking whom he might devour. Just look in your newspaper.

 

We as amils know Satan is still out there anywhere over the world right now. Satan stills blind people from know or understanding the gospel of salvation.

And we all know, the wicked is still out there in the world right now.

We are commanded to resisting against Satan, because he is seeking to devour us - 1 Peter 5:8.

Satan is real and dangerous.

But, Satan is limited of his power. One thing that Satan cannot stop is, to prevent Church from spreading the gospel of the kingdom. Also, Satan cannot destroy the kingdom of God/heaven, it is already spreadin g over the world since Calvary to today.

Revelation 20:1-3 is symbolic picture, that Satan is limited or restaining/holding back from deceived the nations, because Christ already give his key to the Church that Church spread the gospel of tje kingdom - Matt. 16:18-19; Acts 1:8.

Satan is now chained, it represents that Satan is now holding back(2 Thess. 2:6-7; & Rev. 17:8) from deceived the nations, means Satan is limited of his power to deceived nations. Satan cannot stop Church from spreading the gospel on the kingdom to the world, because Church already have the key which was given by Jesus Christ(Matt. 16:18-19. Key represents power.

Angel of Rev. 20:1 represents Jesus Christ.

Satan was defeated by Calvary fulfilled Genesis 3:15.

We should know that the book of Revelation show lot of symbols, symbols have spiritual meanings. By the way, symbols with spiritual meanings are literals.

Rev. 13:1 - a beast with seven heads and ten horns, if you think it is a literal monster. Then, why not you go lookings every rivers, and lakes to find a real monster with seven heads and ten horns? It is a symbol meaning. But, it is literal spiritual meaning. A beast represents wicked world system, seven heads represents seven continents(North America, South America, Africa, Europe/Russia/Asia, Austriala, Antractica, & Greenland), and ten horns represents world of ten leaders.

Premills emphasis 'a thousand years' is a literal - exactly length time of 1,000 years.

I am not yet post on 'a thousand'. But, I promise, I will make post on 'a thousand' with verses, which one is literal or figurative later this week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

OldRegular: "Thankfully classic dispensationalism is a dying doctrine. A movement called progressive dispensationalism is already denying the claim of Darby/Scofield/Chafer/Ryrie/ Walvoord that Jesus Christ came to establish an earthly Messianic kingdom, failed, and established the Church for which He died [Acts 20:28] as an after thought."

I can never buy that.
The plan for the salvation of the Gentiles was planned
by God before the foundation of the Earth.
The plan for the Tribulation Day salvation of the Jews
was planned after the foundation of the Earth.

Proof text #1:

Eph 1:4 (KJV1769):
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Proof text #2:
THe phrase "from the foundation of the world" speaks of thing
that have happened since the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:3 (KJV1769):
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

"finished from the foundation of the world" means completed
since the world begain.

 

DeafPosttrib: "We as amils know Satan is still out there anywhere over the world right now. Satan stills blind people from know or understanding the gospel of salvation."

YOu as an a-mill know that. Other a-mills have not caught on.
So please be careful you don't appear to be underwriting
a-mills on the parts you don't agree with them on.

DeafPosttrib: "Satan is now chained, it represents that Satan is now holding back(2 Thess. 2:6-7; & Rev. 17:8) from deceived the nations, means Satan is limited of his power to deceived nations. "

You contradict your earlier statement. Take one or the other
and run with it. YOu can't play football and basketball at
the same time.

 

It is so sad the way the followers of Darbism/Scofieldism/dispensationalism twist Scripture attempting to dig themselves out of the pit they are in.

2 Peter 3:8 tells us But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You are tragically mistaken in saying that this passage says "1,000 years is called a day". The message of this passage is that time does not exist with God. Time is something God created for the benefit of man. God exists eternally, there is no such thing as time with God. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, that is what 2 Peter 3:8 ;means.

I was speaking of 2 Peter 3:10. The 1,000 year reign of Jesus on a physical throne in a physical Jerusalem - the 1,000 years is bolded:

2Pe 3:10 (KJV1611):
But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a great noise, and the Elements shall melt with feruent heate, the earth also and the works that are therin shalbe burnt vp.

I found the definitions of 'day' and 'hour' in my dictionary. I compared them to the context in which they appear. The meaning of 'day' is 'the appointed time' (#8 in my dictionary); the meaning of 'hour' is 'the appointed time' (#2 in my dictionary).

'The appointed time' = 'The apointed time' so
'day' = 'hour'. But i'm a dispensationalist. l "Dispensation' refers to stewarship or the economy. The Dispensations of God are the economy of God. So i say, and rightly so: in the economy of God, 'hour' = 'day'. And the day is coming when God's judgment will rain down this earth BUT NOT ON THE GONE Christians.
Not all judgement will come done on one 24-hour day. Not all of God's judgement will rain down in one 60-minute hour. But God's judgement is inescapable. The Christians will be judged (rewarded) in heaven while the Tribualtion Day Judgement is poured on mankind.

I used to think it was neat that God would get even with evil men (after taking the good folk to heaven with him). But that was before 1964. In 1964 was the time that the world had enough nuclear weapons to destroy themesevles. God must intervene else the world will destroy itself. The plans of God include a way of saving a maximum number of Jews (the mostly Gentile Christians will be GONE) in the Tribulation Day Judgement. </font>[/QUOTE]EE

I quote your response.

EE: Please highlight the 1000 years that you claim is in 2 Peter 3:10. I can't seem to find it but then the language of the original 1611 KJV is somewhat difficult, u's look like v's and vice versa.


EE

I showed you in my response that even if day means the appointed time John 5:28, 29 tells us that all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Anyway you slice it at the appointed time there will be a general resurrection and general judgment, which, by the way, is called the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 25:31-46].

 

Trailblazer, are you like, 12 or something? Is your knowledge on this issue really as limited as you are saying?

Rapture is a transliteration of the latin word, rapturo. The latin word simply means: caught up.

Now, in your well thought out position, does the phrase "caught up" appear ANYWHERE in 1 Thes 4?

Good grief, how pathetic. Try again with some substance.

As to your other point, salvation does not mean the doctrine of soteriology in every text that is translated as salvation. It could mean deliverance. In fact, it does in a number of texts. Just get a concordance and figure it out. I am not trying to insult your intelligence, because I am reallllyyy sure you knew all that.

The context always determines the meaning.

Paul mentions the rapture in chapter 4. Then in chapter 5, he specifically says he is talking about the TIMING of the events.

He says the following will take place:
1. the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night
2. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them
3. they shall not escape
4. God did not appoint us to wrath
5. but to obtain salvation

Who are the parties in this discussion? The childrey of the day and the children of night. He is talking to people already saved. Are you telling me they still need to be saved? Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Finish middle school, learn the importance of context, come back in a about 10 years when your reasons for not being pretrib are a little more intelligent than: Where do you find the word "rapture" in that verse? Snicker snicker.

Btw, as to what I said about the rapture and a multiplicity of texts, it is true for all theology. You don't get your understand of the trinity (another word not in the Bible but true nonetheless) from just one verse. Think man. It isn't that hard.

Frankly, I am going to take some time off the Baptist board. While I enjoy beating down your deplorable theology and watching you guys squirm like little girls at my questions, I get bored.

I might be back. Hopefully your theological IQ has advanced beyond 3.

 

Trailblazer: ///...multiplicity of texts" = dispensationalism's "cut-and-paste" twisting of scripture.//

Interesting, One brother condemns DD for not using scripture;
you condemn DD for using multiple scriptures. DD: you are
damned if you do and damned if you don't. Fortunately you
have the situation well in hand. Enjoy those who strain
out knats but have camel swollowing contests .

Trailblazer: "Nowhere in scripture does God tell us he is going to deliver us from tribulations in this world! "

I can't tell you this is an ignorant statement. This
statement shows a complete lack of the ability to
discern between TIME and CONDITION. The Tribulation period
is a TIME; a personal tribulation is a CONDITION.
Don't try to confuse the two, it won't work. Jesus will
be with us in tribulation the condition; Jesus will be
with us in the Tribulation 7-year-day TIME PERIOD.

Look at the 5th post on the 18th page.
I have bolded part of 2 Peter 3:10.

The "Day of the Lord" there is the 1,000 year period
in which the physical Lord rules the physical earth
on a physical throne of a physical David in physical
Jerusalem. But you probably can't see it. You don't
need to have Revelation 20 make physical sense so you
don't need to make 2 Peter 3:10 make physcial sense.
You, Sir, are spiritualizing away the whole HOPE of the
pretribulation Rapture.

OldRegular: "Incidently I thought that Jesus Christ used parables to teach truth using an allegory."

True. But you cannot get stuff out of the allergory that
Jesus didn't put in there.

For example: In the parable of the tares and the wheat,
found in Matthew 13:24-31, the mention of the
judgemetn of the tares preceedes the mention of the harvest
of the wheat. In fact, a non-parable passage:
Revelation 20:5 says that the the just are judged first
and the evil are judged after a physical 1,000 years
of Christ's ruling on earth. Sorry, fellow but
when you sacrificed Revelation 20:5 on the altar of
mysticism, you misunderstood this Revelation 13 parable.

 

EE

When the apostle Paul was defending himself before the Roman governor Festus by preaching the Gospel Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.[Acts 26:24] The best I can say about you is that you are confused.

Please read 2 Peter 3:10 and point out to me where 1000 years is mentioned. I will quote it here so you can highlight it in your response.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You seem to be saying, I am really not sure, that the Day of the Lord represents 1000 years. However the rest of the passage states that in the Day of the Lord, ... in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up Please tell me, if the earth is to be destroyed in the Day of the Lord where are all those nice folks who survive the GRRReat Tribulation and all the resurrected Saints going to live. Also, where is David's throne going to be. I just can't seem to figure it out, Please help me.

EE

Let me post that parable again. I believe it went something like this:

Matthew 12:22-30 [KJV, 1769]
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Let us examine this [parable?].

1. Jesus healed one possessed with a devil who was both blind, and dumb.
2. All the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
3. But them mean old Pharisees heard it they accused Jesus Christ of casting out devils through Satan or in the power of Satan.
4. Jesus Christ tries to reason with them by pointing out that if Satan casts out demons, who I believe are the servants of Satan, then he is fighting against himself.
5. Jesus Christ then tells these mean old Pharisees: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
6. Of course these mean old Pharisees don't believe Him.
7. But Jesus Christ is patient and tries to reason further with them, those mean old Pharisees, and [I suppose this is where the parable comes in.] uses an analogy of someone breaking into your house.
8. Jesus Christ questions: how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man?

Now I assume that the strong man represents Satan and Jesus Christ binds Satan. Isn't that the message here? Also I believe that in an earlier post in response to your request I gave some more Scripture showing that Jesus Christ defeated Satan at his First Coming. For clarity's sake I will post a couple of them again, my favorites:

John 12:30, 31 [KJV, 1769]
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Hebrews 2:14, 15 [KJV, 1769]
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I threw in verse 15 to show that those who had been in bondage to Satan could now be delivered.

EE

I am so glad you mentioned the parable of the tares and the wheat. What does it tell us, let us read it.

Matthew 13:24-30 [KJV, 1769]
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I won't bore you by discussing the entire parable but just ask one question, how many harvests were there? Please note verse 30: Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

EE, there was only one harvest, I say again, only one harvest, one general resurrection and one general judgment!

Now you state:

How does Reveletion 20:5 read?

Revelation 20:5 [KJV, 1769]
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I had my eyes checked last week, I will give you the ophthamologist's name if you desire, and my vision was ok. For the life of me I can't see anything about judgment in the above passage, Revelation 20:5.

Now I am still trying to understand what you mean by the statement "when you sacrificed Revelation 20:5 on the altar of mysticism, you misunderstood this Revelation 13 parable."

First, what is the altar of mysticism? Second, how did that parable in Revelation 13 get in here? I need some more info before I can respond on that one.

 

You gave Scripture to support your contention that "The plan for the salvation of the Gentiles was planned by God before the foundation of the Earth." I assume you are not limiting the elect to Gentiles to the exclusion of the Israelites.

However you failed to present any scripture to support your contention that "The plan for the Tribulation Day salvation of the Jews was planned after the foundation of the Earth."

WHY? WHY?WHY?

 

However you failed to present any scripture to support your contention that "The plan for the Tribulation Day salvation of the Jews was planned after the foundation of the Earth."

It take a couple or three verses together.
Something frequently beyond your usual comprehension.

 

Whomever: "First, what is the altar of mysticism? Second, how did that parable in Revelation 13 get in "

I discussed earlier the Matthew 13 prable.
So when i type fast i type the wrong stuff.
Should be too hard to follow, if you wished
to cut a little slack.

"Alter of mysticism" is a figure of speach.

I was suggesting that by practicing mysticism in your
understanding of a-mill, that you were worshiping falsly.
Caveat: I think a saved person can worship amiss.

To make spiritual only the 1,000 year physical rule
of CHrist on a physical earth is to be practicing
mysticism. Only Mysticas go way beyond what your
run of the mill a-mill goes.

 

EE

I see you have stooped to the level of DD. If you can't answer, insult.

 

EE

I notice you and DD cut everyone a lot of slack!

Bless your little pea piking heart EE I have never made spiritual "the 1000 year physical rule of CHrist on a physical earth", I have simply stated that Scripture does not support such a physical rule.

By the way what kind of body do the Saints who were "raptured" before the GRRReat Tribulation have during the 1000 year reign on the physical earth while they are judging "whoever"?

 

You are a good role model

 

I am still waiting for adherents of Darbyism/Scofieldism/classic dispensationalism/ultra dispensationalism, whichever they prefer, to quote just one verse of Scripture that teaches a pretribulation rapture. They are apparently unable to do so.

 

I am an adherent to Pauline dispensationalism (Eph.1, 3, Col.1, 1 Cor.9), which teaches the FACT that the mystery of the gathering of the BODY OF CHRIST (1 Cor.12,15/1 Thess.4)is a gathering before THE WRATH TO COME (1 Thess.1,5, Matt.3,24, Luke 3, 21), identified by Paul as the day of the Lord. We ESCAPE that TIME which is the tribulation/great tribulation/affliction/days of vengeance/wrath (Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21) which comes on Jerusalem (the time of Jacob's trouble, Jer.30) at the MIDST of Daniel's week, IDENTIFIED by the Lord Jesus Christ through Daniel. (Dan.9,11,12)

No problem for this BIBLICAL dispensationalist to give you the verses for the fact of a PRETRIB gathering.

Thanks for the REQUEST and OPPORTUNITY.