A-millennialism still reigns supreme -

[DeafPosttrib]

Several months ago, I found clearest verse or passage in the Old Testament, that are speak against pretrib & premill doctrine:

"Before the LORD: for he COMETH for he COMETH to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth." - Psalm 96:13 KJV

It speaks of the only ONE coming of Christ, also, it speaks of the only ONE judgement at Christ's coming. Obivous, it is clearly speak of posttrib & amill coming of Christ to juge the world. This verse say nothing about 'a thousand years'.

"Before the LORD, for he COMETH to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity." - Psalm 98:9 KJV

Obivous, this verse is speak of the only ONE coming of Christ, also, it speaks of the only ONE judgement day upon the world at Lord's coming. It proves posttrib and amill doctrine. Psa. 98:9 says nothing about 'a thousand years'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[trailblazer]

DeafPostTrib,

I think we're the only ones left here! Perhaps they are hiding in those "dens" to keep the rocks from falling on them?

 

[OldRegular]

DeafPostTrib,

Good Job!

 

[trailblazer]

Amen!

I was told once that everything is contained in the Old Testament concerning what is necessary for one's salvation or eternal judgment so that no human being before the Cross has an excuse when they stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Had God not provided everything that would be required of any man, Jew or Gentile, he would not be able to sentence or forgive on the Last Day.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by trailblazer:
DeafPostTrib,

I think we're the only ones left here! Perhaps they are hiding in those "dens" to keep the rocks from falling on them?

Or, we could be burying
our mother-in-law. But some of us still
get our major exercise from JUMPING TO
CONCLUSIONS

 

[Ed Edwards]

Unknown poster: "Since thare is no time in eternity
to speak of 1000 years is meaningless!"

Define "time" and "eternity" so that this sentence
makes sense. Generaly all time is a subset
of the eternity set. But i'm sure you can make
some definitions that make the sentence meaningful.

Daniel David: "Further, I know Christ's kingdom is eternal. That doesn't preclude the first 1,000 years of that reign on the earth to be marked off prior to the rest of the time."

Amen, Brother Daniel David -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

There are 7 references to "1,000 years" in the HCSB:

2Pe 3:8 (HCSB):
Dear friends, don't let this one thing escape you: with the Lord one day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years like one day.

Re 20:2 (HCSB):
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.

Re 20:3 (HCSB):
He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.

Re 20:4 (HCSB):
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

Re 20:5 (HCSB):
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 (HCSB):
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.

Re 20:7 (HCSB):
When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

There being about 31,100 verses in the Bible,
there are 31,093 that DO NOT MENTION the 1,000 years.

It is a foolish exercise for a person to go through
thsoe 31,093 verses and deny they fail to mention
the 1,000 years. Each person is responsible before
God for thier time. Please don't waste our time
with meaningless denial of each passage

Please note though, all these mentions of
1,000 years refer to the same time.

This time is marked by:
1. the saints of God rule with the Messiah
2. Satan will be bound at the beginning of the 1,000 years
3. Satan will be released for a time at
the end of the 1,000 years.
4. 1,000 years to a man is like a day to God
5. Satan deceives the nations before the 1,000 years;
Satan deceives the nations after the 1,000 years
(strongly implied: Satan will not deceive
the nations during the 1,000 years).
6. The first resurrection occurs before the 1,000 years;
the second resurrection occurs after the 1,000 years.

I note that nobody who claims that the 1,000 years
is a symbol of something spiritual has ever bothered
here to tell what it is a symbol of.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

This week, I will reply back to you, and discuss on verses about "a thousand years".

You think, amills cannot read or understand verses say "a thousand years"? Are amills have eye or sighting problem, that we have to wear glass? Amills are not dumb, they understand what the passage of Revelation chapter 20 talking about. No amill deny or tear chapter 20 out of Revelation or Bible. They understand and agree what the whole passage of chapter 20 talking about. I was in your shoe before for a long time.

I will discuss more on "a thousand years", what the passages are talking about this week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[trailblazer]

Daniel David,

Are we to take it then that you were falsifying claims about Amilleniums history for the purpose of simply using it as an opportunity to make degrogatory accusations since you seem to be avoiding providing a website that we can verify your many claims.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
I can recommend sources if you like. I will not type out books because you are lazy.

Origen was a heretic on several accounts:
1. Denial of the bodily resurrection of Christ
2. Belief in universal reconciliation (including satan)
3. He was a gnostic that saw the material as evil and only the spiritual as really important.

If I need to further explain this stuff to you, then I am wasting my time.

This is why I quit posting on the other thread. I have given history, theology, scripture, quotes, facts, and you and your ilk just brush it aside looking for the next excuse. It gets boring.

You have also yet to produce the source or the quotes from the source that you used to support those accusations as you said below on Friday that you would do by the end of that day.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Trail, I am about to hit the road on business. I will try to get you the info by the end of the day. My primary source is at home. Btw, cowering before amills is like a Destroyer cowering before a row boat. Cheers.

 

[trailblazer]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
There are 7 references to "1,000 years" in the HCSB:

2Pe 3:8 (HCSB):
Dear friends, don't let this one thing escape you: with the Lord one day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years like one day.

Re 20:2 (HCSB):
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.

Re 20:3 (HCSB):
He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.

Re 20:4 (HCSB):
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

Re 20:5 (HCSB):
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 (HCSB):
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.

Re 20:7 (HCSB):
When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

There being about 31,100 verses in the Bible,
there are 31,093 that DO NOT MENTION the 1,000 years.

It is a foolish exercise for a person to go through
thsoe 31,093 verses and deny they fail to mention
the 1,000 years. Each person is responsible before
God for thier time. Please don't waste our time
with meaningless denial of each passage

Please note though, all these mentions of
1,000 years refer to the same time.

This time is marked by:
1. the saints of God rule with the Messiah
2. Satan will be bound at the beginning of the 1,000 years
3. Satan will be released for a time at
the end of the 1,000 years.
4. 1,000 years to a man is like a day to God
5. Satan deceives the nations before the 1,000 years;
Satan deceives the nations after the 1,000 years
(strongly implied: Satan will not deceive
the nations during the 1,000 years).
6. The first resurrection occurs before the 1,000 years;
the second resurrection occurs after the 1,000 years.

I note that nobody who claims that the 1,000 years
is a symbol of something spiritual has ever bothered
here to tell what it is a symbol of.

EE
None of your quotes show that Jesus Christ will reign on this earth for 1000 years!!!!!!! Furthermore, your final claim is incorrect as shown below!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by OldRegular, Feb. 17, 2005 12:32 AM:Just give me one quote from Scripture that Jesus Christ will rule for 1000 years on this earth!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by OldRegular, Feb. 18, 2005 11:43 AM:The 1000 years simply represents the time between the two comings of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Re 20:4 (HCSB):
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

Oh, i see, this doesn't say JESUS CHRIST WILL RULE
FOR 1,000 YEARS ON THIS EARTH.

Well it is close enough for me.

Let me read the riot act:

"Just give me one verse ... "

I'm sorry God didn't choose to give you one
and only one verse that says exactly what you want
to believe in one and only one verse. Sometimes
you have to read a few verses together.
This is called "interperting the Bible using
the Bible".

Here is this verse, were is Messiah reigning?
The verse does NOT say earth.
The verse does NOT say heaven.
The verse does NOT say hell.
The verse does NOT say all three.
So, were does the Messiah reign for 1,000 years?

I say earth.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Re 20:4 (HCSB):
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

If you interpret this verse literally only the martyrs of the so-called great tribulation will reign with Jesus Christ since that is when the mark of the beast is supposed to appear!!!! I guess that I should mention that the great dispensational theologian John Walvoord interprets this verse to mean only the great tribulation martyrs. [Major Bible Prophecies, page 378]

What happened to all those who were resurrected prior to the so-called great tribulation?

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Oh, i see, this doesn't say JESUS CHRIST WILL RULE
FOR 1,000 YEARS ON THIS EARTH.

No it doesn't!

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Well it is close enough for me.

What is that old saying, "a miss is as good as a mile"?

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Let me read the riot act:

Please don't!

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
"Just give me one verse ... "

Ed, Ed
That is what I said!

I am a poet,
And I didn't know it!

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I'm sorry God didn't choose to give you one
and only one verse that says exactly what you want
to believe in one and only one verse. Sometimes
you have to read a few verses together.
This is called "interperting the Bible using
the Bible".

Here is this verse, were is Messiah reigning?
The verse does NOT say earth.
The verse does NOT say heaven.
The verse does NOT say hell.
The verse does NOT say all three.
So, were does the Messiah reign for 1,000 years?

I say earth.

You don't have to limit your quote to just one verse. I will take all you can give me, but one would suffice. That being said I always thought that the souls of the deceased Saints were in Heaven with Jesus Christ. Could I be wrong?

Actually God did give me what I believe about the End Times but He did it in two verses, John 5:28, 29:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So you see if you try hard enough you can find it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

John 5:28-19 (KJV1611 Edition):

Marueile not at this: for the houre is comming,
in the which all that are in the graues shall
heare his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come foorth, they that haue
done good, vnto the resurrection of life,
and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection
of damnation.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV1611 Edition):

But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night,
in the which the heauens shall passe away with
a great noise, and the Elements shall melt with
feruent heate, the earth also and the works that
are therin shalbe burnt vp.

I worry about people who spiritualize many
terms and take both "hour" and "day" literal.
But IMHO the "hour" here is the same as the "day".
Both mean "the appropriate time". Moreover,
both refer to about 1007 physcial earth years:
7 years for the tribulation and 1,000 years for
Christ Jesus, the Messiah, to reign on a physical
throne (of David) in a physical Jerusalem in a physical
world.

A-mill - a dead theory.

 

[Ed Edwards]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Re 20:4 (HCSB):
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whomever: "What happened to all those who were
resurrected prior to the so-called great tribulation?"

The people seated on the thrones are those resurrected
prior to the tribulation day. The ones beheaded by
the beast are tribulation day saints.
There are two sets of individuals mentioned here -
two mutually exclusive sets of individuals.
I note the HCSB has removed the KAI between "judge"
and "also saw". That KAI = AND connects here two
independent sets of persons.

Of course, a-mill theory can't match this,
being a fruitless theory.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
John 5:28-19 (KJV1611 Edition):

Marueile not at this: for the houre is comming,
in the which all that are in the graues shall
heare his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come foorth, they that haue
done good, vnto the resurrection of life,
and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection
of damnation.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV1611 Edition):

But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night,
in the which the heauens shall passe away with
a great noise, and the Elements shall melt with
feruent heate, the earth also and the works that
are therin shalbe burnt vp.

I worry about people who spiritualize many
terms and take both "hour" and "day" literal.
But IMHO the "hour" here is the same as the "day".
Both mean "the appropriate time". Moreover,
both refer to about 1007 physcial earth years:
7 years for the tribulation and 1,000 years for
Christ Jesus, the Messiah, to reign on a physical
throne (of David) in a physical Jerusalem in a physical
world.

A-mill - a dead theory.

It is a mystery to me how someone can take an hour or a day out of passages intended to be interpreted literally and stretch them to exactly 1007 years. Why not 1007 days, or 7000 days or 7000 years? It is even a greater mystery how anyone can take Daniel's so-called 70th week which has already been fulfilled and transfer it into the distant future. Scofield did not Rightly Divide the Word of God He splintered it.

If it were just Darby's eschatology no one [except Darbyites] would really care. However, he has a false theology of the people of God, dividing what is one into two, with his "parenthesis Church".

The Southern Baptist Faith and Message disputes this doctrine, noting in The Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000: “The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ died for His Church. It borders on heresy for someone to attempt to divide it.

Acts 20:28-30
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

How prophetic these words are!

No, it is Darbyism [or Scofieldism if you prefer] that is a false doctrine and Thank God it is a dying doctrine.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Whomever: "It is a mystery to me how someone can take
an hour or a day out of passages intended to be
interpreted literally and stretch them to exactly
1007 years. Why not 1007 days, or 7000 days or 7000 years?"

Of course it is a mystery to you.
I got it out of the Bible; you may not
be familiar with it???
I've already listed where i got the 1,000 years.
Here is the seven years of the tribulation period:

-----------------------------
I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Re 20:4 (HCSB):
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whomever: "What happened to all those who were
resurrected prior to the so-called great tribulation?"

The people seated on the thrones are those resurrected
prior to the tribulation day. The ones beheaded by
the beast are tribulation day saints.
There are two sets of individuals mentioned here -
two mutually exclusive sets of individuals.
I note the HCSB has removed the KAI between "judge"
and "also saw". That KAI = AND connects here two
independent sets of persons.

Of course, a-mill theory can't match this,
being a fruitless theory.

Well double E the HCSB is a poor choice. If you look long enough you might find a version that has God as the mother/father of a Jesus Christ who is neuter.

Revelation 20:4, if translated literally whuich Darbyites supposedly do, is talking about one group of people, the tribulation martyrs. Even the premier dispensational theologian Walvoord is honest enough to admit that as I noted in an earlier post. However, it has been my experience that most Darbyites will continually twist Scripture, digging themselves even deeper into the hole they have dug, trying to justify their false doctrine.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Daniel 9: 26, 27 from the NKJV:
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

EE's illigitimate translation of Daniel 9:26, 27:
I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV)

This is beyond sad it is PATHETIC that someone would TWIST Scripture in such a manner.

 

[OldRegular]

EE

The passages from Thessalonians are not talking about a pretribulation rapture but the resurrection of the Saints at the Last Day, the sound of the Last Trumpet, as Jesus Christ tells us so clearly in John 5:28,29.