Featured A passage in which many struggle

Thanks Winman, we agree on a lot, and one thing for sure, Calvinism twists scripture so far, they claim it says the opposite of what it actually says. John 6:29 is certainly a glaring case in point.

 

The reason this assertion is false is it leaves out, that God hardens hearts so that folks will not hear, understand accept and be forgiven. And Jesus had to encode the message in a parable to prevent folks from hearing and understanding and accepting and being healed.

The whole edifice of Calvinism crumbles when actually studied critically.

 

They really do. It is amazing, they can take scripture that is plain and simple and twist it all around until they claim it says the exact opposite of what it is really saying. I have never seen anything like it. And it is not just now and then, here and there, they get practically all scripture completely backwards.

You don't see non-Cals arguing that "all" means "some", or that "world" means "the elect only", etc....

I would be embarrassed to be a Calvinist. No, I could not even do that.

 

Yes, one of the reasons is they trusted their teachers, taking the lessons as taught, rather than learning how to independently study scripture. That is why so often, an argument is made by copying something someone else said. An IG report would say they made an unwarranted deferral of responsibility to those that went before.

I can't tell you the number of times a perfectly sincere Calvinist has said Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches faith rather than salvation is the gift in view. Even a Calvinist who knows the grammar precludes that possibility will remain silent and not post a gentle assertion of the truth. So there appears to be no internal tolerance for questioning the party line, even if divergent. So Calvinism would flourish in a top down leadership modeled church, but not so much in a "priesthood of believers" modeled church.

 

the argument on Calvinism and Arm. will NEVER be solved---because both sides have errors in them.

Arm. doesn't carry it far enough and Calv. has the same problem it doesn't carry it as far as it should according to the Truth.

Calv. is more Truth than Arm.---but Calv has errors and need to carry it even further according to scripture and truth.

So keep on debating with the errors on both sides that there is NO answer for

:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

For those readers, check out Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

When "en" is translated as "through" it means "by" and "by the agency of" In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 we are chosen "en" (by the agency of) the sanctification by the Spirit, He sets us apart in Christ, and on the basis of faith in the truth, i.e. if God credits our faith as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ.

Sanctification has two meanings (1) positional, i.e. to be set apart, and (2) to become more holy. Saints are those who have been set apart.

A person who has been set apart in Christ and washed by His blood is holy. However, while on this earth, still wrapped in this mortal flesh, we must work at becoming conformed to the image of Christ. This process of becoming more Christ like is called progressive sanctification. Paul uses the word sanctification in this manner, See 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

I certainly share that call to independent verification of everything I say.

 

Hi Agedman, repeating an argument does not validate it.

I addressed John 6:28-30, showing the question was what do we need to do, and the answer was believe in God, and then they asked for a sign so they could believe. The premise that the work of God refers to Irresistible Grace is simply without support in scripture. The work God requires is the correct understanding of the phrase. Even Dr. Wallace agrees. Most translation stick with the ambiguous "work of God" but several go with the NET viewpoint, including Mounce Reverse Interlinear, CEV, GNT, and the Knox translation. No translation translates it as "this is the work God does" None, zip.

 

Hmmmm...

Then, translate this for us: ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας

And, be sure to tell us why each word--especially the prepositions--is translated the way it is.

The Archangel

 

Hi Agedman, I provided how "en" is being translated as through, and your evidence, including the "by implication instrumentality" supports the translation of en as through, i.e. by agency of.

I provided the passage, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 as the classic reference for progressive sanctification.

Finally Colossians 1:13 does not say Christ transfers us, it says God transfers us into His Son's Kingdom. Thus, 3 for 3, arguments that are underwhelming.

Not sure how else I can help. I think no matter what I say, you will see it as twisting scripture, because to accept it means Calvinism is bogus.

 

I will take that thought to this. God created man "Adam," in a state lower than the angels in order that his foreknown before the foundation of the world Son could come in that image and by death, destroy him who had the power of death that is the devil. thus destroying death, then, man in the image of Adam could be re-born in the image of the, resurrected from the dead, Son of God, equal to and or higher than the angels. These by the choice of God.

 

Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. Acts 17:1-3 KJV

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV


That in bold is the truth. And if Christ was not raised from the dead there would be no faith.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.

There would be no faith and there would not have been any Spirit of truth given if Jesus the Christ had not died and if God the Father had not raised Jesus from the dead.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

And before the coming of the faith Gal.3:23 YLT And the faith having come Gal. 3:25 YLT

It was the faith of truth that brought the Spirit of truth by which you are set apart. Sanctified.

that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. Gal. 3:14 YLT

The promises were made to Abraham and his one seed Christ Gal 3:16
Jesus first received the promise of the Holy Spirit and then it was shed on us through him.
at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; Acts 2:33 YLT
and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, John 14:26 YLT

this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:2 YLT



All of God.

 

Agedman,
you are posting solidly as usual,Van and Winman resist all such posts as they keep truth far from their posts. Archangel just stepped in to once again correct Van....but Van will either head for the hills or in some other way resist the truth being posted.They cannot seem to help themselves for some reason.
It would not be such an issue except everyday in every thread they teach falsehoods.You and others post truth, then they claim you are picking on them personally. it is the same pattern Look on virtually every thread they post in.....the same pattern emerges...they offer novelties and flat out error.

Jn 6 is wonderful speaking of the great work of our Lord and Saviour...do not let these detractors discourage you from your solid posts.

 

Aged: I must submit to you that you are reading verse 29 completely devoid of the immediate context. The immediate context has absolutely nothing to do with what you think it does. These people are asking Jesus to give them the power to make FOOD for themselves. Please read the obvious context without Calvinist pre-supposition:
Jhn 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Notice here how clearly they are asking Jesus to teach them HOW TO MAKE BREAD FOR THEMSELVES! They aren't asking about anything salvific....they aren't asking about faith or election or salvation or the new birth...they are trying to get Jesus to teach THEM how to make physical food for themselves. That's all they want.
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The purpose of verse 29 is for Jesus to change what they are seeking for:.....The "WORK" has already been defined by the people...and Jesus is responding back to what they said in verse 28. I'll cite it again it italics:
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
In other words....Jesus isn't defining faith, he isn't offering any details about faith; he is introducing faith to them. He is simply telling them that they are searching for the wrong thing.
Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Notice how the people brush off Jesus' attempt to convince them that they are looking for the wrong thing and go straight back to wanting to fill their gut: This is similar, in a way to the woman at the well, who is wanting Jesus to find her physical "water", and not understanding that Jesus is talking about himself as the "water of life". The point of the passage and the references to "works" is Jesus attempting to change their thinking from physical bread to himself as the "bread of Life"...That context is clearly alluded BACK TO later on in the passage you cite:
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

I am afraid you have been viewing that passage from Calvinist pre-supposition which insists on two things:
1.) That "faith" is in any way properly defined as a "work". (and it's not, and no amount of further study of Scripture will imply that.)
2.) That man cannot exercise faith, or be empowered to exercise faith...except God essentially CAUSE him to believe.

Even if those are BOTH true....your rendering of what is being taught in verse has been skewed, because it has been used as a Calvinist "proof-text" to demonstrate that faith is a "work"....and that God himself is, and must be the one who gives that "work" of faith to people.

Please attempt to re-read the passage and what verse 29 is teaching simply from it's own obvious and immediate context and I believe you will see it quite diffferently.

 

I .J.

Welcome back....in the NT...the people always errored thinking in physical terms rather than spiritual. Even Nicodemus did this...
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That is the focus....no matter what the hungry people wanted.
Jesus stayed on message and revealed some of the eternal purpose of the Godhead in this chapter,He himself being the New Exodus.....greater than Moses...greater than the physical manna.......

 

Sir, I believe you have missed the "immediate context". Jesus said, "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." Jesus recognized in verse 26 that the crowd was there for the loaves and the fishes, but He countered that with "the food which endures to eternal life". He changed the dynamic. He told them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent". The crowd challenged Him on this claim by asking for a sign. Eventually this lead to the Jews grumbling among themselves (v. 41) because of Jesus' claim that He was the bread that came down out of heaven (v. 33). This is not a Calvinistic interpretation of the text. This interpretation is shared by Charles Ryrie, J. Vernon McGee, and even Charles Wesley; and no one is going to accuse these men of being Calvinists.