A passage in which many struggle

[convicted1]

Now this is where I totally agree with you. It's what us some of us Non Calvinists called Once Saved Always Saved (eternal security). However, this is not all there is to it in Calvinism. In Calvinism you'll note that salvation is based on perseverance, not preservation. In eternal security, God preserves the persons salvation, in Calvinism God works through the believer to persevere to the end.

So although it APPEARS that Calvinism teaches OSAS, Calvinist salvation is actually a works-based salvation because even though they claim that it is God that causes you to persevere, that perseverence is still performance based, and if you don't have the works, they claim you were never saved in the first place. So ULTIMATELY, assurance of salvation in Calvinism is not based on the finished work of Christ, but on the perseverance of the believer to endure to the end. It is a complete flip-flop on their explanation of salvation where they claim man has no choice, no free will, that God does it all, but yet it is all about man enduring after salvation. Watch how many Calvinists attempt to refute this comment by quoting James chapter 2, 1 John 2 and Phillipians 2.

The Calvinist "P" in TULIP is not the same thing as eternal security.

Not even close. Even when I was solidly in the non-cal camp, I had no problem with either title, perserverence or preservation. We, as christians, will persevere through any trouble or trial that satan throws at us because we are firmly in His grasp. Plus, we are preserved in Him, too. I have no problem with either. I am eternally secured, and I will perservere, because I am held in His grasp.

 

[convicted1]

Exactly. I've tried to point this out to Calvinists before, but it is as if they don't understand their own doctrine.

The one and only way any Calvinist can hope to know he is elect is if he does works that proves to himself he is saved. And as you said, he MUST persevere. It is as much slavery as a man under the law.

From Wiki on Perseverance of the Saints



The only way a Calvinist can have assurance is if he keeps working hard, and even that is not satisfactory, Calvinists are known for doubting their salvation.

Thank God I do not have to depend on my faithfulness to persevere to be saved, I am depending on the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to keep his promise that to those who sincerely come to him he will in no wise cast out, and that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Nope. Not even remotely close, Brother Wes. We persevere only because we have God to hold us up. Nothing that satan throws our way will cause us to slip through His fingers.

From wikipedia:

"Perseverance of the saints" (or preservation) of the saints (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.

I agree that no one who is saved will turn their back and walk away. And nothing that satan throws at them will cause them to lose the christianity. Now, satan may cause us to stumble, but we will never fall, because He will hold us up, and also lift us up when we stumble.

 

[convicted1]

Here's the way I see it:

. God sanctifies someone
. He gives them faith, and in doing so, it sets their will free to choose to come to Him.
. He crushes their stony heart, plants His Seed, and sends workers to water that seed to grow, but He gives the increase.
. He then saves them when they come to Him in faith.

So, you have sanctification, justification, repentance, and salvation, and His hands all over it. It's 100% Him, and 0% man.

 

[psalms109:31]

Man has a role in the salvation of man, maybe not their own salvation except as Spurgeon said here.

"I have laid stress upon a personal appropriation, for each man eats for himself, not for anyone else. You cannot eat
for anybody but yourself. And so, in taking Christ, you take Him for yourself. Faith is your own act and deed—nobody
can believe for you, nor can you savingly believe for another. I say it with reverence—the Holy Spirit, Himself, cannot
believe for us, although He can, and does, lead us to believe. And, indeed, if the Divine Spirit did believe for us, we should
not obtain the promise, since it is not made to proxy faith, but solely and alone to personal believing. We are not passive."

If i am in the deepest part of Africa and no one brings me the message I will not be saved by God at all. It will be 100% nobody in my salvation.

Moses would of done nothing without the burning bush, Abraham without the Angel (messenger) of the Lord would of done nothing.

1 Corinthians 3
The Church and Its Leaders

3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Do you think God makes the seed we plant and water grow? What happens if we don't plant and water? To say man does nothing is wrong we play a big role as messengers of the work God did.

Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.

20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”

22 The hand of the Lord was on me there, and he said to me, “Get up and go out to the plain, and there I will speak to you.” 23 So I got up and went out to the plain. And the glory of the Lord was standing there, like the glory I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown.

24 Then the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet. He spoke to me and said: “Go, shut yourself inside your house. 25 And you, son of man, they will tie with ropes; you will be bound so that you cannot go out among the people. 26 I will make your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth so that you will be silent and unable to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious people. 27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says.’ Whoever will listen let them listen, and whoever will refuse let them refuse; for they are a rebellious people.

James 5:
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3

3 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.



I believe treasures in heaven are people God used us to touch with His message. They will never spoil go bad they will be eternal.

 

[Benjamin]

Here's the way I see it:

. God sanctifies someone
. He gives them faith, and in doing so, it sets their will free to choose to come to Him.
. He crushes their stony heart, plants His Seed, and sends workers to water that seed to grow, but He gives the increase.
. He then saves them when they come to Him in faith.

So, you have sanctification, justification, repentance, and salvation, and His hands all over it. It's 100% Him, and 0% man.

Willis, I've heard you testimony and frankly I think you are looking at it wrong and with a presumption of Calvinism to try to explain how you had a change of heart. This is no easy matter to figure out all God's ways, but maybe a little reminder of how I see God changing my heart and giving me faith may allow you to see it in a different light than having to have faith "forcefully implanted" against your free will or better said "volition":

God gave me faith because I declared with my mouth that I loved the Truth, (Rom 10:9). But, God didn’t give the gift of faith to me as in replacing my mind or as if I was robot unable to respond, He gave it to me by influencing me until I made that (“true”) choice to believe in love of the truth as He revealed it. Therefore God gets ALL the credit for my salvation and ALL the glory is His! God’s way in the world is judgment (Deut 32:4) and every person that has that ability to respond, (Rom 1:20) will be responsible to do so.

It took me 35 years before I came to God asking Him to speak to me and show me His Way for me to live in this world and know true Love. During that preceding time I cursed Him, screamed in rage at Him and used His Name in vain, but I was too proud to live my life in the world by any other way than mine.

When I was finally broken enough to come to Him in tears and ask for His guidance in my life while admitted my way wasn’t working and never would – it was then, or I should say, shortly after that I received the gift of faith. (The first part of my coming to Him is why I look at the doctrines of Prevenient Grace as describing a kind of grace before the gift of sylvatic Grace through faith.) BUT, let me make it perfectly clear, God didn’t just hand me the faith, or replace my mind, He continued influenced me with the truth and as I loved Him for His truths I came to faith FROM MY OWN MIND.

The night I came to God in tears all I basically felt at first was a strange unexplainable sense of peace like I had never known. It was the next morning, being sincere about wanting to know Him that I picked up a Bible that someone had given me years before and started to find out more about God that I truly came to faith. You see, as per the Biblical order, first I heard, God began talking to me through those Words, showing me that He is Truth. You see, I had asked God to speak to me while telling Him I didn’t know how I could ever hear Him. AND when I picked up that Bible which I knew absolutely nothing about I shortly came to the Words in John 1 talking about the Word being there in the beginning, the light unto all the world, but the world wouldn't receive Him, but as many as DID receive Him and whatnot, and then I happened to turn to Mathew and read the promise of ask, seek, knock on the door and for everyone that ask, seeks knocks – receives. HIS WORD IS TRUE!!!! (Maybe God guided me to pick up that Bible and maybe, I'd say most likely, He guided my hands to turn to the right pages so I could hear Him as I asked) At that moment I realized that “I” had asked and low and behold!!! true to His Word “I” received and that my friend was the free gift of Grace through the gift of faith!!! I knew God was Truth, He continued speaking to me and "my" faith grew! I received a new heart, one of faith, because "I" love the Truth - true to the promises in His Words (John 3:16).


Yes, God gets 100% of the credit! - I never could have come to Him without the... lets call it "Prevenient Grace" that He bestowed upon me (Rom 1:20). I was not "SPECIAL" in any way, I wasn't preselected to respond, I was prejudged and found guilty like everyone else. There was nothing in me, by my own will, that I would have come to Him on my own, apart from His influence. I have no pride in coming to God, I died to my self, to my ways, how can that be a prideful thing or something that I feel that I earned??? I came to God in shame, broken and in despair and from "my" heart asked for the truth - God (Providentially) judged my response to His influences and gave me more truth - I loved the Truth came to faith and He forgave my sinful ways and saved me!

 

[Herald]

Not even close. Even when I was solidly in the non-cal camp, I had no problem with either title, perserverence or preservation. We, as christians, will persevere through any trouble or trial that satan throws at us because we are firmly in His grasp. Plus, we are preserved in Him, too. I have no problem with either. I am eternally secured, and I will perservere, because I am held in His grasp.

Brother Willis,

Perseverance of the saints is more than just being eternally secure in Christ. The once-saved-always-saved (OSAS) label is rooted in antinomianism (anti=no or against; nomos=law; i.e. no law). This type of antinomianism believes that once the individual makes their decision to "accept Christ" their salvation is secure no matter what happens in their life. They can go so far as to even repudiate their faith, but since they trusted in Jesus as their Savior they cannot be lost. This is what Paul wrote against in Romans 6. Not everyone on the free will side actually believes that, but enough do to make OSAS, at a minimum, an imprecise term.

Perseverance of the saints describes not only the security of the new birth, but the progressive sanctification of the believer. In spite of temptation and sin the believer will persevere in their faith because of Christ. Christ is building His Church (Matthew 16:18), not only in numbers, but in holiness (i.e. becoming more like Christ; Philippians 1:6).

 

[DrJamesAch]

Willis

Brother Willis,

Perseverance of the saints is more than just being eternally secure in Christ. The once-saved-always-saved (OSAS) label is rooted in antinomianism (anti=no or against; nomos=law; i.e. no law). This type of antinomianism believes that once the individual makes their decision to "accept Christ" their salvation is secure no matter what happens in their life. They can go so far as to even repudiate their faith, but since they trusted in Jesus as their Savior they cannot be lost. This is what Paul wrote against in Romans 6. Not everyone on the free will side actually believes that, but enough do to make OSAS, at a minimum, an imprecise term.

Perseverance of the saints describes not only the security of the new birth, but the progressive sanctification of the believer. In spite of temptation and sin the believer will persevere in their faith because of Christ. Christ is building His Church (Matthew 16:18), not only in numbers, but in holiness (i.e. becoming more like Christ; Philippians 1:6).

Like I said above, the Calvinist system for perseverance of the saints is not the same as eternal security or once saved always saved straight from one of the horses mouths, and is based on WORKS.

Calvinism begins by telling you that your salvation is all of God, there is no free will, man has absolutely no involvement, not in repentance, not in calling on the name of the Lord, not in faith, but yet after salvation it is a matter of demonstrating that God actually elected you by a constant show of works. If at any time you get discouraged because of life's trials, or even as Peter did, denied Christ, the Calvinist would argue that you nor Peter were ever saved in the first place.

If a Calvinist were around Peter, he would have claimed that Peter was not saved. Then the Calvinist would have reaffirmed his belief that Peter was saved once Peter picked up the ball again. But then in Acts 10, Peter is found arguing with God about pork. There goes his salvation again. Oh but then he comes back to God by preaching to Cornelius. But then Peter loses his salvation again when compelling others to be circumcised in Galations 2.

When a person gets saved, just what exactly did God save them FROM? For the Calvinist, Christ did not forgive all their sins because the evidence that proves they are saved is a consistent demonstration of a pattern of works that which, if NOT demonstrated, shows one was never saved.

Are there sins that have more or less weight after salvation? Just how far does a person have to go before they can know that they have conquered all of their sinful habits and thoughts? Or does God simply overlook the Calvinists sins but keeps it a secret from them how far they have progressed? No Calvinist can say that in the next 10 minutes they will not sin. They can not say that in a year from, a loved one will not die and they will become bitter and angry at God. What then is the believers assurance of salvation based on? The Calvinist can not say that salvation is all of God, and that assurance is based on works, and be consistent with their theology.

Now the Calvinist will claim that it is God that causes you to persevere, but if it is God that causes you to persevere, then why can't He prevent you from ever backsliding in the same way that He irresistibly saved you? You mean God overcomes your will to save you, but doesn't overcome your will to prevent you from sinning afterwards? The Calvinist at this point MUST apply a libertarian view of freedom to justify backsliding which conflicts with their view of compatibilist freedom in salvation. This deprives the Calvinist of ever knowing FOR SURE that they are saved and causes a constant guessing game as to their election and will always cause any honest Calvinist to constantly question whether they have or will do enough to prove that God truly caused them to persevere.

And no Paul was not against OSAS. Paul told the Galations about the law, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal 3:3. Herald's view here is actually more in line with Arminianism:

"Unbeknown to me, Lance had begun reading some “radical” eternal security books that taught cheap grace, easy believeism, and antinomianism." From Arminian Today.

The accusation that OSAS is derived from antinomianism is also the position of the popular Arminian apologist, Dan Corner. It is also the position of the Seventh Day Adventists.

So just let that sink in on how inconsistent Calvinists are in their theology and accusations.

 

[Van]

Getting the cart before the horse once again

Here's the way I see it:

. God sanctifies someone
. He gives them faith, and in doing so, it sets their will free to choose to come to Him.
. He crushes their stony heart, plants His Seed, and sends workers to water that seed to grow, but He gives the increase.
. He then saves them when they come to Him in faith.

So, you have sanctification, justification, repentance, and salvation, and His hands all over it. It's 100% Him, and 0% man.

Why did God sanctify someone? Through faith in the truth? 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God sanctifies someone, does He not set them apart in Christ?

Are we not born anew after we are baptized into Christ, undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation?

Are we not transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of the Son of God? Colossians 1:13 Is this not being set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, who baptizes us into Christ.

When we are born anew, in Christ, are we not at least spiritually children of God?

When were we given the right to become children of God? The answer is when we were put spiritually in Christ, i.e. sanctified.

Thus John 1:12-13 teaches we have faith before we are given the right, i.e. transferred into Christ spiritually, to become children of God.

So the correct order is:

1) God credits someone's faith as righteousness.
2) God transfers the person into Christ spiritually.
3) God removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh and removes the body of flesh,i.e. the sin burden.
4) We arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above.
5) We are sealed forever with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our adoption as children of God, our physical resurrection.

 

[agedman]

Willis, I've heard you testimony and frankly I think you are looking at it wrong and with a presumption of Calvinism to try to explain how you had a change of heart. This is no easy matter to figure out all God's ways, but maybe a little reminder of how I see God changing my heart and giving me faith may allow you to see it in a different light than having to have faith "forcefully implanted" against your free will or better said "volition":

God gave me faith because I declared with my mouth that I loved the Truth, (Rom 10:9). But, God didn’t give the gift of faith to me as in replacing my mind or as if I was robot unable to respond, He gave it to me by influencing me until I made that (“true”) choice to believe in love of the truth as He revealed it. Therefore God gets ALL the credit for my salvation and ALL the glory is His! God’s way in the world is judgment (Deut 32:4) and every person that has that ability to respond, (Rom 1:20) will be responsible to do so.

It took me 35 years before I came to God asking Him to speak to me and show me His Way for me to live in this world and know true Love. During that preceding time I cursed Him, screamed in rage at Him and used His Name in vain, but I was too proud to live my life in the world by any other way than mine.

When I was finally broken enough to come to Him in tears and ask for His guidance in my life while admitted my way wasn’t working and never would – it was then, or I should say, shortly after that I received the gift of faith. (The first part of my coming to Him is why I look at the doctrines of Prevenient Grace as describing a kind of grace before the gift of sylvatic Grace through faith.) BUT, let me make it perfectly clear, God didn’t just hand me the faith, or replace my mind, He continued influenced me with the truth and as I loved Him for His truths I came to faith FROM MY OWN MIND.

The night I came to God in tears all I basically felt at first was a strange unexplainable sense of peace like I had never known. It was the next morning, being sincere about wanting to know Him that I picked up a Bible that someone had given me years before and started to find out more about God that I truly came to faith. You see, as per the Biblical order, first I heard, God began talking to me through those Words, showing me that He is Truth. You see, I had asked God to speak to me while telling Him I didn’t know how I could ever hear Him. AND when I picked up that Bible which I knew absolutely nothing about I shortly came to the Words in John 1 talking about the Word being there in the beginning, the light unto all the world, but the world wouldn't receive Him, but as many as DID receive Him and whatnot, and then I happened to turn to Mathew and read the promise of ask, seek, knock on the door and for everyone that ask, seeks knocks – receives. HIS WORD IS TRUE!!!! (Maybe God guided me to pick up that Bible and maybe, I'd say most likely, He guided my hands to turn to the right pages so I could hear Him as I asked) At that moment I realized that “I” had asked and low and behold!!! true to His Word “I” received and that my friend was the free gift of Grace through the gift of faith!!! I knew God was Truth, He continued speaking to me and "my" faith grew! I received a new heart, one of faith, because "I" love the Truth - true to the promises in His Words (John 3:16).


Yes, God gets 100% of the credit! - I never could have come to Him without the... lets call it "Prevenient Grace" that He bestowed upon me (Rom 1:20). I was not "SPECIAL" in any way, I wasn't preselected to respond, I was prejudged and found guilty like everyone else. There was nothing in me, by my own will, that I would have come to Him on my own, apart from His influence. I have no pride in coming to God, I died to my self, to my ways, how can that be a prideful thing or something that I feel that I earned??? I came to God in shame, broken and in despair and from "my" heart asked for the truth - God (Providentially) judged my response to His influences and gave me more truth - I loved the Truth came to faith and He forgave my sinful ways and saved me!

Ben,

Thank you for that salvation testimony.

Such a testimony certainly shows that: "10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death."

We may disagree and even be disagreeable, but I praise the Lord God of Heaven for any and all that are saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

It is no secret that on the BB many discussions deteriorate into a view that involves either "free will / choice" or total inability.

There is a section of Scriptures in which Christ states EXACTLY who will and will not be saved as well as the security of those that believe.

There are other Scriptures that bear witness, but those of John 6 are so plainly stated that it remains inarguable.

John 6:

28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is [i]that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
​

Does ANY not read that belief is the work of God?

Does anyone miss that some will see (even read, hear...) the Word (Christ) and NOT believe?

Does anyone not see that Christ was contrasting those who do not believe with those that DO believe is decreed NOT by human effort but by the very WILL of God ("This is the will of Him who sent me...").

Does anyone not take it as factual "...that everyone (NOT ANYONE) that beholds the Son and believes in Him WILL have eternal life...?"

I cannot find even the slightest hint of human capacity to accept, reject or any other current indicators of "free will / choice" exist in this passage from John. In fact, I see this passage as a TOTAL refutation of such thinking.

Frankly, I am rather weary of those who want to bolster some kind of human made up view in order to water down the decrees of God.

"NO MAN comes to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" does NOT include humankind ability in any manner.

God draws; Jesus saves.

Because whom God draws WILL believe.

There is no freedom of choice / will as some on the BB have continually argued for in plain refutation of the very Word of God.

It is no wonder that the end of such a human involvement view is that salvation must be held on to under human effort and cannot ultimately be assured.

Certainly, there are those of the BB who would make much of the adoption of some principle such as OSAS.

But, upon what is that hope based when they put human involvement into the salvation from the beginning.

ONLY those given to Christ by God WILL come in belief.

NONE others are invited.

You may not like that message, but if you deny it, you set yourself against the very words of Christ.

Preach it brother, spoken like a real reformed, or a calvinist!

 

[Van]

I addressed John 6:28-30, showing the question was what do we need to do, and the answer was believe in God, and then they asked for a sign so they could believe. The premise that the work of God refers to Irresistible Grace is simply without support in scripture. The work God requires is the correct understanding of the phrase. Even Dr. Wallace agrees. Most translation stick with the ambiguous "work of God" but several go with the NET viewpoint, including Mounce Reverse Interlinear, CEV, GNT, and the Knox translation. No translation translates it as "this is the work God does" None, zip.

I provided how "en" is being translated as through, and your evidence, including the "by implication instrumentality" supports the translation of en as through, i.e. by agency of.

I provided the passage, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 as the classic reference for progressive sanctification.

Finally Colossians 1:13 does not say Christ transfers us, it says God transfers us into His Son's Kingdom.

Bottom line John 6 provides absolute no actual support for Calvinism, and only Calvinists struggle with it to make it conform to their man made doctrine. They try to turn the work men must do, i.e. believe, into the work God must do. Good golly Miss Molly.

 

[agedman]

I addressed John 6:28-30, showing the question was what do we need to do, and the answer was believe in God, and then they asked for a sign so they could believe. The premise that the work of God refers to Irresistible Grace is simply without support in scripture. The work God requires is the correct understanding of the phrase. Even Dr. Wallace agrees. Most translation stick with the ambiguous "work of God" but several go with the NET viewpoint, including Mounce Reverse Interlinear, CEV, GNT, and the Knox translation. No translation translates it as "this is the work God does" None, zip.

NASB: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Wycliffe: 29 Jesus answered, and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe to him, whom he sent.

KJV: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

ESV: 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

CJB: 29 Yeshua answered, “Here’s what the work of God is: to trust in the one he sent!”

I think that is enough to render your view as quite inaccurate.

I provided how "en" is being translated as through, and your evidence, including the "by implication instrumentality" supports the translation of en as through, i.e. by agency of.

I provided the passage, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 as the classic reference for progressive sanctification.

No, you didn't. It disagrees with the original language and I showed you how even in STRONGS it refutes your view.

Finally Colossians 1:13 does not say Christ transfers us, it says God transfers us into His Son's Kingdom.

As stated in earlier posts, to apply this passage as support of your view of "en" isn't appropriate, for it doesn't even hint at that use.

Bottom line John 6 provides absolute no actual support for Calvinism, and only Calvinists struggle with it to make it conform to their man made doctrine. They try to turn the work men must do, i.e. believe, into the work God must do. Good golly Miss Molly.

Van,

Didn't you post that repeating yourself does not support your view?

You deny that what you have posted above has been refuted, but that doesn't make the refutation any less valid.

Using your last statement with slight revisions:

Bottom line John 6 provides absolute actual support for Calvinism, and only non- Calvinists struggle with it to make it conform to their man made doctrine. They try to turn the work men must do, i.e. believe, into the work God does. Good golly Miss Molly.

 

[Van]

Hi Agedman,
1) We agree that "the work of God" is a fair and accurate translation. The issue is what does the phrase mean. You say it means the work God does, and I say it means the work God requires we do. To point to the ambiguous phrase and claim it means the opposite of what the hearers though is absurd. We have been all through this. I showed several translations, including the NET which translates as I understand it, you can provide no translation that translates it the way you understand it, none, zip, nada.

2) No, Strong's supports the view of the NASB translators, I quoted the support and so far you have not seemed to grasp it. Let me post it again:

I provided how "en" is being translated as through, and your evidence, including the "by implication instrumentality" supports the translation of en as through, i.e. by agency of. Instrumentality means that something, the instrument, was used to accomplish something. Thus the choosing was accomplished by the sanctification by the Spirit.
En is translated as "through" dozens of times, and for you to deny it is absurd.

3) I did not use Colossians 1:13 to support translating en as through. You indicated sanctification means something happening statically, with no change in location, and I said, no, to sanctify means to set apart, and then you denied any verse says we were transported.
Post 28 quotes Agedman saying God does not transport, and I respond with Colossians 1:13.

Yes, I repeated parts of my posts to restate the truth, as this one does too. When someone posts falsehood, or in my opinion falsehood, I try to correct the record. Note that Yeshua1 quoted your argument again, repeating the falsehoods (in my opinion) and thus I repeated my truths (in my opinion).

Repeating an argument does not make it true, and if someone else repeats it, it still is not true, so a rebuttal is appropriate.

Now, you made several mistakes, and I have corrected them, but will you acknowledge en can be translated correctly as through? No. Will you acknowledge, God transports people from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son? No. Will you acknowledge that the vague and ambiguous phrase, the work of God means, in John 6:29, the work God requires? No. Will you acknowledge sanctification has two meanings, (1) to set something apart, and (2) to make something holy.

You like Strong's, lets see what it says: The word, G38, is the noun form of the verb "hagiazō" (G37) which means to "separate from profane things and dedicate to God." Thus sanctification (2 Thessalonians 2:13) or sanctifying (1 Peter 1:1-2) refers to being set apart in Christ, being transferred from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son.

 

[agedman]

Hi Agedman,
1) We agree that "the work of God" is a fair and accurate translation. The issue is what does the phrase mean. You say it means the work God does, and I say it means the work God requires we do. To point to the ambiguous phrase and claim it means the opposite of what the hearers though is absurd. We have been all through this. I showed several translations, including the NET which translates as I understand it, you can provide no translation that translates it the way you understand it, none, zip, nada.

Van,

Thank you for stating that "'the work of God' is a fair and accurate translation."

However, your claim that it is "ambiguous" is inappropriate.

Again, Christ is stating the same principle as He did with Nicodemus and the rich young ruler. Both had the same idea that these Jews had - we need to perform some ritual - but Christ directly and with clear meaning stated what He said.

Your claim that Christ's words are "ambiguous" is a weak defense of your thinking.

I take the Word of God at face value when it states so clearly "This is the work of God."

The NASB is by nearly all authoritative scholars the most accurate translation available. Why would I rely on anything less?

2) No, Strong's supports the view of the NASB translators,

Van, didn't the Strongs come BEFORE the NASB?

I quoted the support and so far you have not seemed to grasp it. Let me post it again:

I provided how "en" is being translated as through, and your evidence, including the "by implication instrumentality" supports the translation of en as through, i.e. by agency of. Instrumentality means that something, the instrument, was used to accomplish something. Thus the choosing was accomplished by the sanctification by the Spirit.
En is translated as "through" dozens of times, and for you to deny it is absurd.

Van, again I will illustrate how "through" does not always mean movement.

How does one show ownership? Through the title of a car.

Did the title jump around? Did the title move from car to car?

No, and that is "en" - static, not showing movement of any kind. FIXED in place.

Again the illustration of electrical conduit is FIXED in place in which wiring and therefore energy flows.

Priest's didn't jump around to be sanctified - proclaimed Holy.

The tabernacle didn't jump around to be sanctified - proclaimed Holy.


The temple didn't jump around to be sanctified - proclaimed Holy.

Believers don't jump around to be sanctified - proclaimed Holy.

3) I did not use Colossians 1:13 to support translating en as through. You indicated sanctification means something happening statically, with no change in location, and I said, no, to sanctify means to set apart, and then you denied any verse says we were transported.
Post 28 quotes Agedman saying God does not transport, and I respond with Colossians 1:13.

But just as you stated, this in no way supports your view of Sanctification (declared Holy) as "transported." Therefore, using this verse is a distraction to the argument you are attempting to present.

Yes, I repeated parts of my posts to restate the truth, as this one does too. When someone posts falsehood, or in my opinion falsehood, I try to correct the record. Note that Yeshua1 quoted your argument again, repeating the falsehoods (in my opinion) and thus I repeated my truths (in my opinion).

Falsehood ONLY in your thinking does not constitute true falsehood. It is called denial, and most folks in denial have a very difficult time working through to the truth.

Now, you made several mistakes, and I have corrected them, but will you acknowledge en can be translated correctly as through? No. Will you acknowledge, God transports people from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son? No. Will you acknowledge that the vague and ambiguous phrase, the work of God means, in John 6:29, the work God requires? No. Will you acknowledge sanctification has two meanings, (1) to set something apart, and (2) to make something holy.

You like Strong's, lets see what it says: The word, G38, is the noun form of the verb "hagiazō" (G37) which means to "separate from profane things and dedicate to God." Thus sanctification (2 Thessalonians 2:13) or sanctifying (1 Peter 1:1-2) refers to being set apart in Christ, being transferred from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son.

Oh, Van,

I don't have the time to even begin to dismantle how very wrong you are.

Go back to Strong's - look and "en" and then try to see if there is any movement.

There isn't and your argument fails for lack of TRUE Scriptural support.

 

[Winman]

How do scholars who understood Greek interpret this verse?

Verse 28
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? - That is, such things as God will approve. This was the earnest inquiry of men who were seeking to be saved. They had crossed the Sea of Tiberias to seek him; they supposed him to be the Messiah, and they sincerely desired to be taught the way of life; yet it is observable that they expected to find that way as other sinners commonly do - by their works. The idea of doing something to merit salvation is one of the last that the sinner ever surrenders.

Verse 28
That we might work the works of God? - That is, Divine works, or such as God can approve.

Verse 29
This is the work of God, that ye believe - There is nothing you can be employed in more acceptable to God than in yielding to the evidence set before you, and acknowledging me as your Messiah and the Savior of a lost world.

Verse 28
Then said they unto him,.... Understanding by what he said, that they must labour and work, though not for perishing food, yet for durable food; and as they imagined, in order to obtain eternal life by working:

what shall we do that we might work the works of God? Such as are agreeable to his will, are acceptable to him, and well pleasing in his sight: they seem to intimate, as if they desired to know whether there were any other works of this kind, than what Moses had directed them to, or than they had done; and if there were, they suggest they would gladly do them; for this was the general cast and complexion of this people; they were seeking for righteousness, and life not by faith, but, as it were, by the works of the law.

Christ having told them that they must work for the meat he spoke of, must labour for it, they enquire what work they must do, and he answers them, John 6:28,29. 1. Their enquiry was pertinent enough (John 6:28): What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Some understand it as a pert question: "What works of God can we do more and better than those we do in obedience to the law of Moses?" But I rather take it as a humble serious question, showing them to be, at least for the present, in a good mind, and willing to know and do their duty and I imagine that those who asked this question, How and What (John 6:30), and made the request (John 6:34), were not the same persons with those that murmured (John 6:41,42), and strove (John 6:52), for those are expressly called the Jews, who came out of Judea (for those were strictly called Jews) to cavil, whereas these were of Galilee, and came to be taught. This question here intimates that they were convinced that those who would obtain this everlasting meat, (1.) Must aim to do something great. Those who look high in their expectations, and hope to enjoy the glory of God, must aim high in those endeavours, and study to do the works of God, works which he requires and will accept, works of God, distinguished from the works of worldly men in their worldly pursuits. It is not enough to speak the words of God, but we must do the works of God. (2.) Must be willing to do any thing: What shall we do? Lord, I am ready to do whatever thou shalt appoint, though ever so displeasing to flesh and blood, Acts 9:6. 2. Christ's answer was plain enough (John 6:29): This is the work of God that ye believe. Note, (1.) The work of faith is the work of God. They enquire after the works of God (in the plural number), being careful about many things but Christ directs them to one work, which includes all, the one thing needful: that you believe, which supersedes all the works of the ceremonial law the work which is necessary to the acceptance of all the other works, and which produces them, for without faith you cannot please God. It is God's work, for it is of his working in us, it subjects the soul to his working on us, and quickens the soul in working for him, (2.) That faith is the work of God which closes with Christ, and relies upon him. It is to believe on him as one whom God hath sent, as God's commissioner in the great affair of peace between God and man, and as such to rest upon him, and resign ourselves to him. See John 14:1.

None of these scholars (who were Calvinists by the way) agree with Agedman's interpretation.

 

[agedman]

How do scholars who understood Greek interpret this verse?


None of these scholars (who were Calvinists by the way) agree with Agedman's interpretation.

Actually SOME do. And more those that do point to EXACTLY what I was showing Van.


Originally Posted by Barnes Notes

Verse 28
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? - That is, such things as God will approve. This was the earnest inquiry of men who were seeking to be saved. They had crossed the Sea of Tiberias to seek him; they supposed him to be the Messiah, and they sincerely desired to be taught the way of life; yet it is observable that they expected to find that way as other sinners commonly do - by their works. The idea of doing something to merit salvation is one of the last that the sinner ever surrenders.
​

This is exactly what I stated - the folks were used to DOING something to gain God's approval - typically sacrifies and offerings. Christ was presenting MORE needed to be done - just as He did to Nicodemus and the rich young ruler.



Originally Posted by Adam Clarke [/italics]

Adam Clarke WAS NOT a Calvinist - He was Methodist and supported Wesley's view in which not even Baptists support in full.
​

Originally Posted by John Gill

Verse 28
Then said they unto him,.... Understanding by what he said, that they must labour and work, though not for perishing food, yet for durable food; and as they imagined, in order to obtain eternal life by working:

what shall we do that we might work the works of God? Such as are agreeable to his will, are acceptable to him, and well pleasing in his sight: they seem to intimate, as if they desired to know whether there were any other works of this kind, than what Moses had directed them to, or than they had done; and if there were, they suggest they would gladly do them; for this was the general cast and complexion of this people; they were seeking for righteousness, and life not by faith, but, as it were, by the works of the law.
​

Again, supporting EXACTLY my point!



Originally Posted by Matthew Henry

Christ having told them that they must work for the meat he spoke of, must labour for it, they enquire what work they must do, and he answers them, John 6:28,29. 1. Their enquiry was pertinent enough (John 6:28): What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Some understand it as a pert question: "What works of God can we do more and better than those we do in obedience to the law of Moses?" But I rather take it as a humble serious question, showing them to be, at least for the present, in a good mind, and willing to know and do their duty and I imagine that those who asked this question, How and What (John 6:30), and made the request (John 6:34), were not the same persons with those that murmured (John 6:41,42), and strove (John 6:52), for those are expressly called the Jews, who came out of Judea (for those were strictly called Jews) to cavil, whereas these were of Galilee, and came to be taught. This question here intimates that they were convinced that those who would obtain this everlasting meat, (1.) Must aim to do something great. Those who look high in their expectations, and hope to enjoy the glory of God, must aim high in those endeavours, and study to do the works of God, works which he requires and will accept, works of God, distinguished from the works of worldly men in their worldly pursuits. It is not enough to speak the words of God, but we must do the works of God. (2.) Must be willing to do any thing: What shall we do? Lord, I am ready to do whatever thou shalt appoint, though ever so displeasing to flesh and blood, Acts 9:6. 2. Christ's answer was plain enough (John 6:29): This is the work of God that ye believe. Note, (1.) The work of faith is the work of God. They enquire after the works of God (in the plural number), being careful about many things but Christ directs them to one work, which includes all, the one thing needful: that you believe, which supersedes all the works of the ceremonial law the work which is necessary to the acceptance of all the other works, and which produces them, for without faith you cannot please God. It is God's work, for it is of his working in us, it subjects the soul to his working on us, and quickens the soul in working for him, (2.) That faith is the work of God which closes with Christ, and relies upon him. It is to believe on him as one whom God hath sent, as God's commissioner in the great affair of peace between God and man, and as such to rest upon him, and resign ourselves to him. See John 14:1.
​

Winman, you have tried to post a copy and paste to refute and have failed in the attempt.

Perhaps you didn't read what you were copying.

Each express what the OP stated except one that you chose.

That one being a Methodist who defended Wesley's view.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Adam Clarke
Verse 28
That we might work the works of God? - That is, Divine works, or such as God can approve.

Verse 29
This is the work of God, that ye believe - There is nothing you can be employed in more acceptable to God than in yielding to the evidence set before you, and acknowledging me as your Messiah and the Savior of a lost world.

Yep, Clarke got it exactly right. God's work is to influence and He does so in Truth, that we may respond in love of that Truth and that is the acceptable (true) purpose of His work. It is according to His will that we respond to the evidence set before us and yield to the truth, that is what He works for in truth. Otherwise He would be working for something that is meaningless, being already predetermined, how ridiculous to suggest God works for what He already has!

 

[Winman]

Winman, you have tried to post a copy and paste to refute and have failed in the attempt.

Do you really think anyone will agree with you?

I do not care for commentaries myself, I only showed these comments to show how these Greek scholars understood the "work of God". All of these men understood this scripture to apply to the listeners, Jesus was telling them if they wanted to do a work that would please God, then they should believe on him.

I realize you will continue to hold to your view, but nobody agrees with you.

As I and others said before, the response of the people shows how they understood Jesus's answer, they all asked for a sign that they might believe. This absolutely refutes your view whether you accept it or not.

Reality is not determined by what you believe, but by truth. You could believe an old rotten wooden bridge is safe to drive over, but if you are wrong the bridge will collapse and you will fall to your death. Your belief does not make the bridge safe.

 

[agedman]

Do you really think anyone will agree with you?

I do not care for commentaries myself, I only showed these comments to show how these Greek scholars understood the "work of God". All of these men understood this scripture to apply to the listeners, Jesus was telling them if they wanted to do a work that would please God, then they should believe on him.

I realize you will continue to hold to your view, but nobody agrees with you.

As I and others said before, the response of the people shows how they understood Jesus's answer, they all asked for a sign that they might believe. This absolutely refutes your view whether you accept it or not.

Reality is not determined by what you believe, but by truth. You could believe an old rotten wooden bridge is safe to drive over, but if you are wrong the bridge will collapse and you will fall to your death. Your belief does not make the bridge safe.

Winman,

Did you actually READ what you quoted?

Matthew Henry agreed with me.

John Gill agreed with me.

Albert Barnes agreed with me.

Who didn't agree? A METHODIST who defended Wesley's view.

It seems strange that you discount the use of commentaries, then attempt to quote from them, only to turn around and discount the ones you quoted from.

Winman - "That nobody agrees with me" is an inaccurate statement.

The only "others" that agree with you are those who hold a view of human free will / choice which John 6 clearly and soundly refutes.

That you desire to remain with your view - doesn't really make any impact on the veracity of the OP.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

Did you actually READ what you quoted?

Matthew Henry agreed with me.

John Gill agreed with me.

Albert Barnes agreed with me.

Who didn't agree? A METHODIST who defended Wesley's view.

It seems strange that you discount the use of commentaries, then attempt to quote from them, only to turn around and discount the ones you quoted from.

Winman - "That nobody agrees with me" is an inaccurate statement.

The only "others" that agree with you are those who hold a view of human free will / choice which John 6 clearly and soundly refutes.

That you desire to remain with your view - doesn't really make any impact on the veracity of the OP.

Henry, Gill, and Barnes did not agree with you, they all understood this scripture to say that Jesus told them they must believe to do the work of God.

You just keep on telling yourself you are right. I am not going to waste my time arguing with you.