A Person, with a Weapon, Breaks into Your Home....

[saturneptune]

Have you ever read about Jim Elliot, and his friends who were murdered in 1956 and knew it could happen and refused to shoot those who murdered them? If not you can learn about them here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duqi9T6JOh0

Each person has to decide how to handle this kind of thing. The only people who are "asinine" are those who mock, and ridicule them for it. There is no scripture that suggest that we are to take life. While it is permitted it is not mandated and each persons faith must be the guide, not someone else's evil remarks.

Yes, each person has to decide to themselves. What happened to someone in 1956 has nothing to do with protecting my family. Also, each of us as Christians has the Holy Spirit as a guide. Most of those in this thread, not me, are leaders of a church, and well versed in Scripture. If the pacifist position was Scirptural, I would expect at least something better than a 98-2 split.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I thought you were at least somewhat reasonable. Looks like I was wrong.

How about commenting on the Scripture?

Sure, Scripture says to do good to them that persecute you.

Now, how someone gets "shoot those that threaten you with a .44 out of that is beyond me.

Scripture says "be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good". How someone gets "Kill them before they kill you" out of that is beyond me.

Scripture says "pray for them that despitefully use you". How someone gets "blow them away" out of that is beyond me.

Scripture says "the Lord reward him according to his works". For the life of me, I can't figure why people think they can play the part of "Lord".

 

[saturneptune]

Sure, Scripture says to do good to them that persecute you.

Now, how someone gets "shoot those that threaten you with a .44 out of that is beyond me.

Scripture says "be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good". How someone gets "Kill them before they kill you" out of that is beyond me.

Scripture says "pray for them that despitefully use you". How someone gets "blow them away" out of that is beyond me.

Scripture says "the Lord reward him according to his works". For the life of me, I can't figure why people think they can play the part of "Lord".

And I cannot figure out why you feel no reponsibility toward the lives of your family.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I wonder why, when Paul was troubled by a "messenger of satan" who buffeted him, Paul didn't waylay the person?

After all, that is the mindset I see most these days have.

Instead, Paul prayed to God to remove that person's persecution.

And what was God's response? KILL HIM!!! AVENGE YOURSELF!!

NO, God says His grace is sufficient.

If one relies on God in the midst of danger, one doesn't have to depend on violence. Just as that 92 year old woman was able to diffuse her attacker, we too can diffuse situations if we submit to God.

Problem is, many let their brains control them instead of their hearts.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

And I cannot figure out why you feel no reponsibility toward the lives of your family.

I feed my family (well, actually my wife does... she is the cook)
I teach my family in the ways of the Lord. I teach them not to fear the one that can kill the body but has no power over the soul. I teach them not to be overcome with evil, but to overcome evil with good. I teach them what the Bible says concerning showing love to those who would persecute, even kill us.

Nowhere does the New Testament tell us to take another person's life.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Have you ever read about Jim Elliot, and his friends who were murdered in 1956 and knew it could happen and refused to shoot those who murdered them? If not you can learn about them here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duqi9T6JOh0

Each person has to decide how to handle this kind of thing. The only people who are "asinine" are those who mock, and ridicule them for it. There is no scripture that suggest that we are to take life. While it is permitted it is not mandated and each persons faith must be the guide, not someone else's evil remarks.

Yes, I've read his biography. Have you ever read about the American Revolution, World War II, the Seven Day War, about any believer who ever defended his family?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Suppose a burglar did break into my house and threatened me, my wife, or my grandchildren?

Suppose I shot that burglar?

Do you know that in my state, if the law can convince the courts that I could have diffused the situation by some other means than shooting, I could be convicted for shooting that burglar... even though he broke into my home?

He could have a gun on him and the law could still say that because he did not shoot it, I was the aggressor and therefore I was in the wrong.

And here you guys are berating me for may stance in practicing faith in God.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Suppose a burglar did break into my house and threatened me, my wife, or my grandchildren?

Suppose I shot that burglar?

Do you know that in my state, if the law can convince the courts that I could have diffused the situation by some other means than shooting, I could be convicted for shooting that burglar... even though he broke into my home?

He could have a gun on him and the law could still say that because he did not shoot it, I was the aggressor and therefore I was in the wrong.

And here you guys are berating me for may stance in practicing faith in God.

Could you stand there & watch him rape your wife; all the while reassuring her that if God wants him to stop, He will intervene? Your high ideals may sound fine when you feel safe, but I would bet if you were put into that situation, your inner human would rear up & defend your wife.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I have enough faith in God that that type of situation will not take place.

OUr neighborhood has only had one police car on it in the last several years. And that was not for a break-in, but rather for domestic violence.

Me worry about such an event taking place? Why should I?

Why does a child of God live in fear of someone breaking in his home? Why try to put another child of God in fear? Is that of God?

Philippians 4:7 (KJV) And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Why dwell on evil? why scheme and plan on the murder of another human?

 

[Don]

The "sheep" in John 10 are not families... they are the children of God.

Again, you ignore the correlation with the rest of scripture. Can you deny that we are to love our wives the way Jesus loves the church? And should lay down our lives for them the way He said He watches the sheep in John 10?

And John 10 still says nothing of shooting someone who breaks into your home. Show me in the New Testament where Jesus shot someone for threatening Him or anyone else?

Bet you can't find that verse.

Of course I can't. They didn't have guns at that time.

But I can show you where He made a whip (a scourge of small cords) and used it to drive out the moneychangers and those that sold sheep, oxen, and doves.

 

[Don]

OUr neighborhood has only had one police car on it in the last several years. And that was not for a break-in, but rather for domestic violence.

There's a business/economics expression that goes: "Past performance is not an indicator of future profits."

Me worry about such an event taking place? Why should I?

Why does a child of God live in fear of someone breaking in his home? Why try to put another child of God in fear? Is that of God?

Why dwell on evil? why scheme and plan on the murder of another human?

"Scheme and plan"?

I'm reminded of an old joke:
It had been raining for days and days, and a great flood had come over the land. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.
As the waters rose higher and higher, a man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.
The waters rose higher and higher, and suddenly a speedboat appeared. "Climb in!" shouted a man in the boat. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the speedboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.
The waters continued to rise. A helicopter appeared and over the loudspeaker, the pilot announced he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the helicopter went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.
The waters rose higher and higher, and eventually they rose so high that the man on the roof was washed away, and alas, the poor man drowned.
Upon arriving in heaven, the man marched straight over to God. "Heavenly Father," he said, "I had faith in you… I prayed to you to save me, and yet you did nothing. Why?" God gave him a puzzled look, and replied "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

I believe it was George Mueller (please correct me if I'm wrong) that used to say, "I pray for a house, but I do it with a hammer and nails in hand."

I have enough faith in God that that type of situation will not take place.

I commend your faith. I've said all I can say, and take my leave of this conversation.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Again, you ignore the correlation with the rest of scripture. Can you deny that we are to love our wives the way Jesus loves the church? And should lay down our lives for them the way He said He watches the sheep in John 10?


Of course I can't. They didn't have guns at that time.

But I can show you where He made a whip (a scourge of small cords) and used it to drive out the moneychangers and those that sold sheep, oxen, and doves.

Show me the verse that says Jesus shot someone to protect the Church? Show me the verse that says Jesus defended the Church by killing a person that was threatening it?

Moneychangers in the Church were hardly a threat to someone's physical life. And Scripture does not say He hit anyone with that scourge he plaited, does it? Had He actually hit someone with that scourge, no doubt He would have been arrested and charged per the Mosaic Law, which He was bound to obey.

 

[Don]

Sorry, saw this one, and couldn't let it go.

Moneychangers in the Church were hardly a threat to someone's physical life. And Scripture does not say He hit anyone with that scourge he plaited, does it?

Please. A guy comes in swinging a whip, chasing people out, turning over tables, and you don't think everyone there felt some threat of potential violence? In fact, the word used in the verse ("drove") has both a non-violent and a violent connotation; yet, when coupled with the context of Jesus using a whip and chasing people, definitely leans towards the 'violent' definition.

Had He actually hit someone with that scourge, no doubt He would have been arrested and charged per the Mosaic Law, which He was bound to obey.

Exactly. He didn't have to hit anybody; they just saw this guy flourishing a whip, chasing people around, and turning over tables; and any normal person would have assumed an intention of being hit, and run away with the rest.

Similar to brandishing a pistol, or racking the slide on a shotgun, wouldn't you say?

That was the whole point about "detente" (for those of us old enough to remember the Reagan years and earlier--and most of us on this board seem to be old enough!): It didn't matter if we were gonna use the nukes; as long as Russia and everybody else thought we would use them, then nobody was willing to use them.

Okay, I'm done.

 

[Crucified in Christ]

You may be trying to hit a home run, but you missed the ball completely.

The verse I quoted had nothing to do with Isaiah... it was one of the Psalms. Psalm 20:7 to be exact.

It had nothing to do with Judah making an alliance with Egypt.

I was not trying to hit a homerun...I just thought that you were attempting to reference Isaiah 31:
Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help,
And rely on horses,
Who trust in chariots because they are many,
And in horsemen because they are very strong,
But who do not look to the Holy One of Israel,
Nor seek the LORD!

I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. My apologies.

 

[Crucified in Christ]

Show me the verse that says Jesus shot someone to protect the Church? Show me the verse that says Jesus defended the Church by killing a person that was threatening it?

I believe that most commentators land on the conclusion that Ananias and Saphira are judged (killed by God) in order to protect the church from the serious sin they were bringing into the fellowship. It, like Achan's killing, was demonstrative of the seriousness with which God views such sin within the "camp".

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Sorry, saw this one, and couldn't let it go.


Please. A guy comes in swinging a whip, chasing people out, turning over tables, and you don't think everyone there felt some threat of potential violence? In fact, the word used in the verse ("drove") has both a non-violent and a violent connotation; yet, when coupled with the context of Jesus using a whip and chasing people, definitely leans towards the 'violent' definition.


Exactly. He didn't have to hit anybody; they just saw this guy flourishing a whip, chasing people around, and turning over tables; and any normal person would have assumed an intention of being hit, and run away with the rest.

Similar to brandishing a pistol, or racking the slide on a shotgun, wouldn't you say?

That was the whole point about "detente" (for those of us old enough to remember the Reagan years and earlier--and most of us on this board seem to be old enough!): It didn't matter if we were gonna use the nukes; as long as Russia and everybody else thought we would use them, then nobody was willing to use them.

Okay, I'm done.

Jesus wielding a scourge does not mean we have the right to wield a weapon. He was sinless, and as such had the right to wield, and even use a weapon if He so chose to do.

But we are not sinless. If we say we have no sin, we are sinning in saying so. Jesus said "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone."

We have no right to execute anyone, as we are not without sin ourselves.

 

[blackbird]

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