-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
A POSITIVE Emerging Illustration
- Thread starter dan e.
- Start date
:tongue3:dan e. said:
Is there any Spirit in the church? Is there any fire in the message?
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the article left out where this church went out and preached repentance and faith toward God. Instead, I read is "The good life is found in God."
Cutter said:
What does that mean?!
I think that would be different things to different people, but I don't attend there now. I have a feeling, whatever you think "fire" means, it wouldn't satisfy you. No worries though, again, I was just showing a good example. It is one, no matter how much "fire" you consider they have, or don't have.
As far as the Holy Spirit, I would definitely say yes, He is present. After all, it is a gathering of believers in Jesus, and they are fulfilling the Great Commission. That couldn't be done without the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by a moderator:
dan e. said:
I thought of Jesus' response to Nicodemus when you asked this question in John 3:10, but I'll word it differently.
Art thou a Christian and knowest not these things.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
"And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:"
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"
All direct quotes from scripture regarding the relation of the Spirit with the believer, and one thrown in about the delivery of God's Word.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
dan e. said:
I am not looking for ways to talk bad about them. My impression based on their outreach strategies is that its more social than inherently evangelical. It appears they have a philosophy of pragmatism rather than faithful preaching.
I too am not against good works, caring for the poor, et. The article, which is what this thread was about (or so I supposed) doesn't give the impression of evangelical zeal. I visited the church website as well. Their brief statement of faith is well within the realm of orthodoxy. My opinion is they should have an expanded version. Their 101,201, 301 classes gives the indication that it is a Willow Creek, or Purpose-Driven, model church or some variation of it. A church like this will operate under a pragmatic philosophy to "win the lost" rather than a dogmatic approach that our mission is to be faithful to God and HIs message.
I highly doubt any of their elders/pastors would disagree with this in general. There may be phrases like, "The message never changes, but the methods always must." In the churches I have served in that held this philosophy the message ALWAYS changed, eventually. The message starts to get watered down and sometimes even completely lost.
This is the impression I get of this church and the path they are on. God has not granted His church the authority either to alter the messege OR the method He has ordained. It may not be popular or as "effective" as some in the church growth movement (or its way of thinking) would like.
I rejoice that this church holds to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I trust that God has worked through them to preach Christ and Him crucified and God by His grace and Spirit has saved folks. Praise God for that. But I cannot rejoice in what seems to me a departure from engaging the cutlure with the Gospel rather than with social endeavors. I have done both. I have done the "social thing" and have gone out to preach the Gospel to sinners.
I think both can go hand in hand. i.e hurrcans relief, et. The article does not give us that impression. The author of the article does not seem to have that impression. Why should I?
The Church is not a welfare agency for the reprobate. It is the Temple of the Living God by God to proclaim the excellencies of Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous Light. We are the salt of the earth. We are the light of the world. Therefore let us live holy, godly and righteous in this present age. Let us meet together not as "in the city for the city" but as "in the world, but not of the world." Let us be in the world for the Lord.
Last edited by a moderator:
Cutter said:
right....I commented on the presence of the Holy Spirit. I was speaking half sarcastically regarding the fire because I was thinking of a fundy, KJVO talking about fire in his message! My sarcasm couldn't be relayed through typing...sorry.
no need to think of me when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus....I understand.
Last edited by a moderator:
4boys4joys
New Member
To the op dan e. I think that any chruch that reaches out to the community is doing something that is needed and can be a wonderful way to spread the gospel. But is it being done in a matter than puts the message of salvation first. Based on the article you presented it does not appear that way.
There also seems to be ecumencialism present. Holding an activity at a Catholic Chruch that has a completely different salvation message than the Bible will only confuse the issue of what the truth is and shows a willingness to accept other doctrines along with there own. Even if that was not the intent of the "good" deed. That is always the message when you reach out to churches that do not have like doctrine. Acceptance of false religion that has no real hope of a salvation, this should not be so.(Doing more harm and causing more confusion to those who need clarity about salvation and not new windows. IMO)
Instead of doing all of the good works for the community. Share the gospel first, allow them to be saved and then teach them about helping the community so that you have a community of like minded Christians who are aware of the needs around them and want to make a differnce for Christ. Now that would be a POSITIVE EMERGING ILLUSTRATION of Biblical works.
If some one is hungry and you give them a meal they may say, wow what a nice thing to do thanks. But if you see someone who is hungry and you ask a brother or sister in Christ to come with you. And you come representing the church and share the gospel and some food. Then the focus is on Christ. The lady at the end of the article said she did not know what was going on. If she could not deflect the outpouring to Christ the work was not effective.
There also seems to be ecumencialism present. Holding an activity at a Catholic Chruch that has a completely different salvation message than the Bible will only confuse the issue of what the truth is and shows a willingness to accept other doctrines along with there own. Even if that was not the intent of the "good" deed. That is always the message when you reach out to churches that do not have like doctrine. Acceptance of false religion that has no real hope of a salvation, this should not be so.(Doing more harm and causing more confusion to those who need clarity about salvation and not new windows. IMO)
Instead of doing all of the good works for the community. Share the gospel first, allow them to be saved and then teach them about helping the community so that you have a community of like minded Christians who are aware of the needs around them and want to make a differnce for Christ. Now that would be a POSITIVE EMERGING ILLUSTRATION of Biblical works.
If some one is hungry and you give them a meal they may say, wow what a nice thing to do thanks. But if you see someone who is hungry and you ask a brother or sister in Christ to come with you. And you come representing the church and share the gospel and some food. Then the focus is on Christ. The lady at the end of the article said she did not know what was going on. If she could not deflect the outpouring to Christ the work was not effective.
ReformedBaptist said:
you have some presuppositions that are not necessarilly true in this:
1) the message changing because of their methods
2) based off of Willow Creek/Purpose driven
3) reprobation
Lots of other assumptions, which are your rightful opinions based on your preferences, but shouldn't be passed on as fact.
Last edited by a moderator:
4boys4joys said:
again...opinions, not fact. I guess there is no way to tell unless we are there. From when I was there, and still know many people apart of it, the gospel was and is being preached. The reason they are reaching the community is FOR the gospel...not just to be nice. I guess one article is difficult to see that, but you guys are making lots of ASSUMPTIONS based on the article and passing them on as facts.
4boys4joys
New Member
dan e. said:
Those " KJVO Fundy's" you speak of have a history of fire filled messages that have led souls to Christ and changed lives for the glory of God. You may not be a part of that or have different view but at least try to respect all of those who preach the gospel of Christ and pray that those men of the faith whatever the label they are given, continue to shed the light of the gospel for God's glory.
man, I hope none of you come around and critique what our church is doing.
I've got no problems with this church and their efforts to join together with other churches in advancing the Kingdom of God. Also it is obvious they get that we are to be the church as much (if not more) than doing church. As we live incarnationally amongst people and show them the love of Christ we get to share with the story of Christ and let them make a decision about the Gospel of Christ.
This church really gets it as far as I see. We must become the Gospel to those around us so we can share the Gospel to people who otherwise would not listen.
Seriously I just don't know how much of this bickering and slandering other ministries under the guise of "monitoring false teachers" is credible and a good use of energies.
I've got no problems with this church and their efforts to join together with other churches in advancing the Kingdom of God. Also it is obvious they get that we are to be the church as much (if not more) than doing church. As we live incarnationally amongst people and show them the love of Christ we get to share with the story of Christ and let them make a decision about the Gospel of Christ.
This church really gets it as far as I see. We must become the Gospel to those around us so we can share the Gospel to people who otherwise would not listen.
Seriously I just don't know how much of this bickering and slandering other ministries under the guise of "monitoring false teachers" is credible and a good use of energies.
4boys4joys
New Member
dan e. said:
Are you a part of this church ? Have you personally witnessed them giving out the gospel beacuse it does not say so in the article which is all we had to go by. Unless you are a witness you are assuming that they are giving the gospel and you are providing your own opinions as well. Assumptions go both ways.
4boys4joys
New Member
I see that you were there and know people that where there. I am not trying to disrespect the chruch. All you gave was the article for the OP. It did not represent what they were doing as well as you having knowledge of it personally. Maybe if you would have given a personal eye witness account of the gospel being given out after the article the response would have been different.
I have been here long enough to see that anytime you post you can expect for others to give there opinion and will not always be a :thumbsup: .
It did not say that the gospel was being shared. It did say there was a meeting at a Catholic church did it not. Not assumption but what was presented. That to me could be observed as being ecumenical , just a thought based on the article.
You can't except us to respond to how you see the church based on your personal experience or opinion on the church but only what you presented as fact. It caused some questions about the efforts based on description. I hope that the center is the gospel and maybe try to find an article that better describes this to the ones you present it to.
I have been here long enough to see that anytime you post you can expect for others to give there opinion and will not always be a :thumbsup: .
It did not say that the gospel was being shared. It did say there was a meeting at a Catholic church did it not. Not assumption but what was presented. That to me could be observed as being ecumenical , just a thought based on the article.
You can't except us to respond to how you see the church based on your personal experience or opinion on the church but only what you presented as fact. It caused some questions about the efforts based on description. I hope that the center is the gospel and maybe try to find an article that better describes this to the ones you present it to.
christianyouth
New Member
From all of the posters on BB, your posts are the scare me the most. You are in a leadership position and you have absolutley NO understanding of conversion. In the past you have posted "Preach the Gospel, and when absolutley necessary, use words" and now in this post your lifestyle evangelism views are showing once again. We do not need to go BE the Gospel to have people listen to the Gospel. We need to preach the Gospel and leave the results to God.preachinjesus said:
There is no basis for this lifestyle evangelism that you constantly exhibit in your posts.