A question about Calvinisum

[Brother Bob]

you didn't answer my question James.

They are in there just read a little closer. They are in an earlier post but they both are in the beginning.

 

[Jarthur001]

you didn't answer my question James.

They are in there just read a little closer. They are in an earlier post but they both are in the beginning.

As to me telling who is who...I can't tell. Salvation is of the Lord.


edited to add this...

So people are called..
then they believe..

So then they are elected
After they are elected they are predestine
Then regeneration
Justification being cleansed by the blood glorification happen just after this.
These most definitly are simitaneously.

So I must ask again...what is election for?

 

[Brother Bob]

well the call is to all, Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men and if you have seen me you have seen the father.

Belief, is after the call for the Spirit strives with a man to repent and he must believe that Jesus is the Christ or he will die and go down to destruction. Jesus said "except ye believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come.

When someone is elected James are they saved one of God's children? If you can't tell where someone is then how can you make a list?

 

[Jarthur001]

well the call is to all, Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men and if you have seen me you have seen the father.

Belief, is after the call for the Spirit strives with a man to repent and he must believe that Jesus is the Christ or he will die and go down to destruction. Jesus said "except ye believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come.

When someone is elected James are they saved one of God's children? If you can't tell where someone is then how can you make a list?

To me, I see in the Bible where it teaches election means God choose.

What do you see it means?

As to making a list, I just go by the Bible Bob.

The Bible clearly says that God chose us before He made the world. God did not chose us because we chose him. The Bible says He chose us 1st.

The Bible also says God predestine us after He elects. This too happened before the world was made.

Did you read what I posted on Eph 1? It is clear.

I didn't make the order...God did. Why do you feel you need to change it?

 

[Brother Bob]

To me, I see in the Bible where it teaches election means God choose.

What do you see it means?

That doesn't answer my question. Are they saved and one of God's children?

Oh, that list, the first two are mine the rest are yours but if mine they all would be one.

 

[Jarthur001]

That doesn't answer my question. Are they saved and one of God's children?

Oh, that list, the first two are mine the rest are yours but if mine they all would be one.

??

Is who saved?? Elect? No...according to Gods Holy Word the elect was choosen before they were born. Just as seen in romans 9. and also eph 1.

the list again...I ask. if election comes after man chooses as you say...what is election for?

 

[Brother Bob]

what is election for?

That is what I been asking you.

I think it adding to the church but I could be wrong.

 

[Jarthur001]

That is what I been asking you.

I think it adding to the church but I could be wrong.

Election is unto salvation

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (elect) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Rom. 11:7).

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (2 Thess. 2:13).

Now then, if the elect obtain salvation, and if election is to salvation, election must precede salvation.

Men are saved when they believe on Christ not when they are elected. President Bush was not president when he was elected, but when he was inaugurated. There was not only an election to, but an induction into the office. God's elect are inducted into the position of saintship by the effectual call, (the quickening work of the Holy Spirit) through which they become believers in the Gospel.

right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 11:5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Seems like I had it right when I said the saved, (the Church)

Bush was President when he was elected to be. He was not elected to be President on the day the votes were counted, but after the first of the year a day set by the constitution.

 

[Jarthur001]

Rom 11:5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Seems like I had it right when I said the saved, (the Church)

Bush was President when he was elected to be. He was not elected to be President on the day the votes were counted, but after the first of the year a day set by the constitution.

In each case..election comes 1st.

Church..(saints)
Bush.....President elect....then Mr President.
The saint.....Elect before they were made.....then saints after they believe


Now I ask again. Why try to change the order. It is clear in the Bible.


right?

 

[Brother Bob]

What is the "election of Grace" James?

I have chosen you out of the world. You think that might be "election of Grace"?


I never changed it from the Bible,

 

[Jarthur001]

What is the "election of Grace" James?

I never changed it from the Bible,

Election of grace is just election by the grace of God.

Again I ask and I would like for you to say something this time.

Election is always before salvation. ...right????

and yes you are changing the Bible if you say it is after salvation

Last time I will ask. If you do not answer it is clear you are dodging it for some reason.

 

[Brother Bob]

They go together James.

Election of Grace you say is "by the grace of God". So by Grace, through faith are ye saved.

Can you tell the Election from the Saved?

I didn't say election is before salvation. Seems to me to be the same thing.


Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Is this the Church and the saved James? They obtained what James, Salvation?


If you been called out of the world by God, are you saved James?

 

[Jarthur001]

They go together James.

Election of Grace you say is "by the grace of God". So by Grace, through faith are ye saved.

Can you tell the Election from the Saved?

I didn't say election is before salvation. Seems to me to be the same thing.

If you been called out of the world by God, are you saved James?

Have a good night Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Is this the Church and the saved James? They obtained what James, Salvation?


If you been called out of the world by God, are you saved James?

I was hoping you would answer these 4 questions James.
You have a good nite also.

 

[russell55]

1. Did God have to change your heart so you would believe in Christ?

Yes. He had to take a stubborn rebellious heart and soften it toward him.
(So we see God, being partial)

No. If God chose to change my heart because of something different in me or because of something different I did, then that would be showing partiality. And if I have to meet some sort of requirement first, then that's not by grace, but by merit. This way, it's gracious and impartial.

2. What reason did he change your heart and didn't change maybe your brother's or someone close. Maybe even you child?

No reasons within me, but reasons within him. If the reasons were within me, that would mean that in some little way, I merited my salvation by providing the reason--or the grounds by which--I was saved.

(So, God either liked you better or he said eny meny minty moe.)

Nope. He placed his redemptive love on me, but not because there was something in me that called it out. And he didn't do it randomly, he did it according to his purpose. It wasn't the luck of the draw.

That's why my only response can be extreme gratitude. I did nothing to obtain God's redemptive love, and it wasn't just dumb luck, either. It was a purposeful choice by a merciful God.

This goes completely against John 3:16 doesn't it?

How so?

For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

I believe that sending his Son is the way God loved the world. I believe that the purpose of sending his Son was so the believing ones would not perish but have eternal life. I believe that no one who believes perishes. I believe that everyone who believes has eternal life.

How does what I believe go against it?

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
1. Did God have to change your heart so you would believe in Christ?

Yes. He had to take a stubborn rebellious heart and soften it toward him.
(So we see God, being partial)


No. If God chose to change my heart because of something different in me or because of something different I did, then that would be showing partiality. And if I have to meet some sort of requirement first, then that's not by grace, but by merit. This way, it's gracious and impartial.

Quote:

2. What reason did he change your heart and didn't change maybe your brother's or someone close. Maybe even you child?

No reasons within me, but reasons within him. If the reasons were within me, that would mean that in some little way, I merited my salvation by providing the reason--or the grounds by which--I was saved.

(So, God either liked you better or he said eny meny minty moe.)
Nope. He placed his redemptive love on me, but not because there was something in me that called it out. And he didn't do it randomly, he did it according to his purpose. It wasn't the luck of the draw.

That's why my only response can be extreme gratitude. I did nothing to obtain God's redemptive love, and it wasn't just dumb luck, either. It was a purposeful choice by a merciful God.
Quote:
This goes completely against John 3:16 doesn't it?

How so?

For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

I believe that sending his Son is the way God loved the world. I believe that the purpose of sending his Son was so the believing ones would not perish but have eternal life. I believe that no one who believes perishes. I believe that everyone who believes has eternal life.

How does what I believe go against it?

In the first place, God had to be partial, or "luck of the draw", you have not been able to give any other reason?

Second place, do you see how many times you used believe, but don't want to apply it, when it comes to Salvation, when Jesus said "except ye believe, ye shall all likewise perish"?

 

[Brother Bob]

Jauthor said: Election of grace is just election by the grace of God.

Again I ask and I would like for you to say something this time.

Election is always before salvation. ...right????

and yes you are changing the Bible if you say it is after salvation

Last time I will ask. If you do not answer it is clear you are dodging it for some reason.

I answered it over and over James you just never saw it.

BBob said: They go together James.

Election of Grace you say is "by the grace of God". So by Grace, through faith are ye saved.

Can you tell the Election from the Saved?

I didn't say election is before salvation. Seems to me to be the same thing.

 

[webdog]

Election is unto salvation

Prove it not using Scripture written to Jews.

 

[webdog]

I've tried to follow the postings and I still get caught up in a circular motion. It appears to me that Calvinism teaches election is by God. God is sovereign. A non-elected person cannot be saved, for God has predetermined this.

If elected -- why the remaining items?

bump...waiting for a calvinist's response...