A question about Calvinisum

So, you are saved before you are sealed as saved. hmmmm interesting!

What God does before believeing He does for all men.

How can you be saved without faith? Why do you think Cain's offering was rejected?

 

I know you believe the offere is sincere, and you're right, we'll never remove "believe.

Brother Bob, I don't want Hanna to get the idea that when Non-Cals speak, Cals automatically will disagree, and vice versa.

We both agree that God is the author of salvation.
We both believe that salvation comes by God's grace through repentance and faith.
We both believe believe that God is sovereign.
We both believe in election.
We both believe in limited atonement (Cals--for only the elect; non-calls for only those who believe.)
We both believe that God commands all people to repent.
We both believe that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin.
We both believe that God gives us the ability to believe (Non-cals when we're born, Cals at regeneration).

That is why I can happily fellowship with Christians who see believe these things but see other things differently. In fact, most of my fellow church members see it like you do, Brother Bob, and I have a deep love and respect for them, and we fellowship well together.

 

That's not evasion, that's responding to the statement, which was, BTW (You should know this. You're the one who wrote it.), about the reason people are hell bound, not the reason people escape hell. They are two different things with two different reasons for coming about. The reason for being hell bound is our sin.

And the reason for escaping hell, BTW, is Christ's work on the cross. Our works condemn us, His work justifies.

As another BTW, God doesn't decide to change anyone's heart for no reason whatsoever. You are poisoning the well and building a strawman argument with that statement. He does it based on his application of Christ's work to them, and as part of his plan.

And he lets the rest go to hell. If they remain in their sins, his justice requires that.

 

Nope. The after in my statement is a logical, not a temporal, placement. We are sealed on the basis of our adoption, which is based in our justification, which comes through the means of faith. It's all instantaneous, temporally, but it all has a logical sequence.

Really? Show me. Do all men hear the gospel? Do all men see Jesus like Paul did when God converted him?

You can't. Who said you could?

 

Mar 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.



Election by God..
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Looks like faith is way down the line.

 

1. Did God have to change your heart so you would believe in Christ?

2. What reason did he change your heart and didn't change maybe your brother's or someone close. Maybe even you child?

3. He lets the rest go to Hell but he had just as much reason to change their heart as he did yours is that right if He chose to?

 

I have a lot of respect for you also Tom.

Some of the things you say we believe alike I would change a little.

The atonement thing I would change a little for I believe Jesus paid the price for all and gave that offering to God but we must believe to receive it and for God to accept the offering and forgive us.

 

But that doesn't speak to the issue, which was your statement that "[w]hat God does before believeing He does for all men."

We are supposed to preach the gospel to everyone. But that's about what God commands us to do--and we don't do a very good job of obeying that command--and not about what God does. Does everyone hear the gospel? Does everyone get knocked off their horse and see Jesus like Paul did?

Faith comes after some previous work by God, and I'm betting you don't disagree with that, either. You might disagree about what comes before faith, but I'm betting you think God does something beforehand.

 

Yes. He had to take a stubborn rebellious heart and soften it toward him.

No reasons within me, but reasons within him. If the reasons were within me, that would mean that in some little way, I merited my salvation by providing the reason--or the grounds by which--I was saved.

Yes, he had as much reason within me to change anyone else's heart as mine. I have no grounds within me to call down his rebirthing power. It comes by grace, which means it's unmerited. That means the grounds for it (or reasons) can't be within me.

But that doesn't mean that God has no reason. The reason is that so that his purpose according to his choice might stand.

 

This goes completely against John 3:16 doesn't it?

 

Bob if you say faith/believing is 1st, where do you place election/predestination/calling?

 

I've tried to follow the postings and I still get caught up in a circular motion. It appears to me that Calvinism teaches election is by God. God is sovereign. A non-elected person cannot be saved, for God has predetermined this.

If elected -- why the remaining items?

 

After Belief............. God sees who believes and who does not believe. If he predestinated you before belief then I would be on your side James.

 

ok..so when does elction happen..and who elects?
when does predestination happen and who perdesinates?
when is the calling and who calls?

You said you disagree with my list.

What is your list?

 

I believe as Jesus said, if I be lifted up I will draw all men, so I believe all men have been called to repent. I believe the Spirit of God strives with all men to repent so I guess that would be the call.

A man can choose good or evil. If he Believes in Chirst then that is the belief and his faith put into action. (thy faith hath made thee whole, or thy faith hath saved thee)

God adds to the Church daily such as should be saved. So that would be the Election, predestination, Giving a new heart of flesh and removing the heart of stone, so I would put the regeneration in there with them. Also, I would add with them the Justification which is to be cleansed with His Blood and Glorification to the inward man all simitaneously. The outward man or the flesh will receive its Glorification in the resurrection.

Which all equals to being saved or "born again" Jauthor. You can't take it in peices it all goes together. I don't understand you fellows lists as if there is a progression to being saved. After the call which is to all and either believeing or not believing then it is either receiving Salvation or Not, which includes all of the lists of God's.
I think that about covers it Jauthor but its not my list. It is how I see God does it.

 

Ok...then its like this..
God draws all men to Him...
Men then chose if they want good or evil.
If they chose good/God they believe
So then they are elected
After they are elected they are predestine
Then regeneration
Then justification is being cleansed by the blood and glorification happen just after this.


Is this the order as you see it?

 

James, you put them in a order. I believe that when you are saved all these things happen to you after you believe. Do you understand. I am not one who follows a succession of order of things but believe as the theif on the cross, it was a moment of time. Hope this makes it more clear. When you think of me, think about the theif on the cross, ok?

So then they are elected
After they are elected they are predestine
Then regeneration
Justification being cleansed by the blood glorification happen just after this.
These most definitly are simitaneously.

I was wondering how you separate them by time or what? Could you look at someone who had been regenerated and know he had not yet been Justified? How are you able to do this James. I don't have that gift.

 

Actually, that's what I meant. Non-Cals hold to a general atonement but applied only to those who believe, thus limited.

 

Yea, I thought it was Tom. We hear more on here than I heared in a whole lifetime about predestination and election.

 

where is "believing" and "called"?