A question about Calvinisum

[Brother Bob]

So, you are saved before you are sealed as saved. hmmmm interesting!

Believing is the first thing we must do. The first four are things God does.

What God does before believeing He does for all men.

How can you be saved without faith? Why do you think Cain's offering was rejected?

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, we believe the offer is sincere also. Its just that we believe all men can repent if they will "believe".

All of you will never remove the word "believe", for it is the heart and soul of receiving Salvation.

I know you believe the offere is sincere, and you're right, we'll never remove "believe.

Brother Bob, I don't want Hanna to get the idea that when Non-Cals speak, Cals automatically will disagree, and vice versa.

We both agree that God is the author of salvation.
We both believe that salvation comes by God's grace through repentance and faith.
We both believe believe that God is sovereign.
We both believe in election.
We both believe in limited atonement (Cals--for only the elect; non-calls for only those who believe.)
We both believe that God commands all people to repent.
We both believe that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin.
We both believe that God gives us the ability to believe (Non-cals when we're born, Cals at regeneration).

That is why I can happily fellowship with Christians who see believe these things but see other things differently. In fact, most of my fellow church members see it like you do, Brother Bob, and I have a deep love and respect for them, and we fellowship well together.

 

[russell55]

More evasion! Why not tell what you really believe that those who escape Hell is because God decided to change their heart for no reason whatsoever and let the rest go on to Hell.

That's not evasion, that's responding to the statement, which was, BTW (You should know this. You're the one who wrote it.), about the reason people are hell bound, not the reason people escape hell. They are two different things with two different reasons for coming about. The reason for being hell bound is our sin.

And the reason for escaping hell, BTW, is Christ's work on the cross. Our works condemn us, His work justifies.

As another BTW, God doesn't decide to change anyone's heart for no reason whatsoever. You are poisoning the well and building a strawman argument with that statement. He does it based on his application of Christ's work to them, and as part of his plan.

And he lets the rest go to hell. If they remain in their sins, his justice requires that.

 

[russell55]

So, you are saved before you are sealed as saved. hmmmm interesting!

Nope. The after in my statement is a logical, not a temporal, placement. We are sealed on the basis of our adoption, which is based in our justification, which comes through the means of faith. It's all instantaneous, temporally, but it all has a logical sequence.

What God does before believeing He does for all men.

Really? Show me. Do all men hear the gospel? Do all men see Jesus like Paul did when God converted him?

How can you be saved without faith?

You can't. Who said you could?

 

[Brother Bob]

Really? Show me. Do all men hear the gospel? Do all men see Jesus like Paul did when God converted him?

Mar 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.



Election by God..
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Looks like faith is way down the line.

 

[Brother Bob]

And the reason for escaping hell, BTW, is Christ's work on the cross. Our works condemn us, His work justifies.

As another BTW, God doesn't decide to change anyone's heart for no reason whatsoever. You are poisoning the well and building a strawman argument with that statement. He does it based on his application of Christ's work to them, and as part of his plan.

And he lets the rest go to hell. If they remain in their sins, his justice requires that.

1. Did God have to change your heart so you would believe in Christ?

2. What reason did he change your heart and didn't change maybe your brother's or someone close. Maybe even you child?

3. He lets the rest go to Hell but he had just as much reason to change their heart as he did yours is that right if He chose to?

 

[Brother Bob]

That is why I can happily fellowship with Christians who see believe these things but see other things differently. In fact, most of my fellow church members see it like you do, Brother Bob, and I have a deep love and respect for them, and we fellowship well together.

I have a lot of respect for you also Tom.

Some of the things you say we believe alike I would change a little.

The atonement thing I would change a little for I believe Jesus paid the price for all and gave that offering to God but we must believe to receive it and for God to accept the offering and forgive us.

 

[russell55]

Mar 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

But that doesn't speak to the issue, which was your statement that "[w]hat God does before believeing He does for all men."

We are supposed to preach the gospel to everyone. But that's about what God commands us to do--and we don't do a very good job of obeying that command--and not about what God does. Does everyone hear the gospel? Does everyone get knocked off their horse and see Jesus like Paul did?

Election by God..
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Looks like faith is way down the line.

Faith comes after some previous work by God, and I'm betting you don't disagree with that, either. You might disagree about what comes before faith, but I'm betting you think God does something beforehand.

 

[russell55]

1. Did God have to change your heart so you would believe in Christ?

Yes. He had to take a stubborn rebellious heart and soften it toward him.

2. What reason did he change your heart and didn't change maybe your brother's or someone close. Maybe even you child?

No reasons within me, but reasons within him. If the reasons were within me, that would mean that in some little way, I merited my salvation by providing the reason--or the grounds by which--I was saved.

3. He lets the rest go to Hell but he had just as much reason to change their heart as he did yours is that right if He chose to?

Yes, he had as much reason within me to change anyone else's heart as mine. I have no grounds within me to call down his rebirthing power. It comes by grace, which means it's unmerited. That means the grounds for it (or reasons) can't be within me.

But that doesn't mean that God has no reason. The reason is that so that his purpose according to his choice might stand.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
1. Did God have to change your heart so you would believe in Christ?


Yes. He had to take a stubborn rebellious heart and soften it toward him.
(So we see God, being partial)

Originally Posted by Hanna (why didn't you tell Hana that?
WHAT? Am I reading that right? Are you saying God makes an offer He doesn't mean or that He doesn't intend to fulfill??

russell;
No, he makes the offer, "Believe and be saved" to all, and he means it. On this, calvinists and non-calvinists agree. Calvinists just say that, based on the testimony of scripture, there's more to it than that. The offer, in and of itself, isn't enough to actually save anyone, not because the offer isn't genuine, and not because
God really wouldn't save anyone who believed, but because fallen people invariably reject the offer. In order for anyone to be saved, more is required of God than just offering salvation through faith: we also need God to work faith within us.

Quote:
2. What reason did he change your heart and didn't change maybe your brother's or someone close. Maybe even you child?

No reasons within me, but reasons within him. If the reasons were within me, that would mean that in some little way, I merited my salvation by providing the reason--or the grounds by which--I was saved.

(So, God either liked you better or he said eny meny minty moe.)

Quote:
3. He lets the rest go to Hell but he had just as much reason to change their heart as he did yours is that right if He chose to?

Yes, he had as much reason within me to change anyone else's heart as mine. I have no grounds within me to call down his rebirthing power. It comes by grace, which means it's unmerited. That means the grounds for it (or reasons) can't be within me.

But that doesn't mean that God has no reason. The reason is that so that his purpose according to his choice might stand.

This goes completely against John 3:16 doesn't it?

 

[Jarthur001]

Mar 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.



GOD does this>>>>Election by God..
GOD does this>>>>Predestination
GOD does this>>>>Calling (this is seen in the verse above mark 16:15)
GOD does this>>>>Regeneration
Believer>>>Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Looks like faith is way down the line.

Bob if you say faith/believing is 1st, where do you place election/predestination/calling?

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Election is not salvation. One must believe to be saved. You posted verse 13 as if that was it. I showed that there was other things in the context you did not address. Again we look at the order.....

Election by God..
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

I've tried to follow the postings and I still get caught up in a circular motion. It appears to me that Calvinism teaches election is by God. God is sovereign. A non-elected person cannot be saved, for God has predetermined this.

If elected -- why the remaining items?

 

[Brother Bob]

After Belief............. God sees who believes and who does not believe. If he predestinated you before belief then I would be on your side James.

 

[Jarthur001]

After Belief............. God sees who believes and who does not believe. If he predestinated you before belief then I would be on your side James.

ok..so when does elction happen..and who elects?
when does predestination happen and who perdesinates?
when is the calling and who calls?

You said you disagree with my list.

My list..
GOD does this>>>>Election by God..
GOD does this>>>>Predestination
GOD does this>>>>Calling (this is seen in the verse above mark 16:15)
GOD does this>>>>Regeneration
Believer>>>Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

What is your list?

 

[Brother Bob]

I believe as Jesus said, if I be lifted up I will draw all men, so I believe all men have been called to repent. I believe the Spirit of God strives with all men to repent so I guess that would be the call.

A man can choose good or evil. If he Believes in Chirst then that is the belief and his faith put into action. (thy faith hath made thee whole, or thy faith hath saved thee)

God adds to the Church daily such as should be saved. So that would be the Election, predestination, Giving a new heart of flesh and removing the heart of stone, so I would put the regeneration in there with them. Also, I would add with them the Justification which is to be cleansed with His Blood and Glorification to the inward man all simitaneously. The outward man or the flesh will receive its Glorification in the resurrection.

Which all equals to being saved or "born again" Jauthor. You can't take it in peices it all goes together. I don't understand you fellows lists as if there is a progression to being saved. After the call which is to all and either believeing or not believing then it is either receiving Salvation or Not, which includes all of the lists of God's.
I think that about covers it Jauthor but its not my list. It is how I see God does it.

 

[Jarthur001]

I believe as Jesus said, if I be lifted up I will draw all men, so I believe all men have been called to repent. I believe the Spirit of God strives with all men to repent so I guess that would be the call.

A man can choose good or evil. If he Believes in Chirst then that is the belief and his faith put into action.

God adds to the Church daily such as should be saved. So that would be the Election, predestination, Giving a new heart of flesh and removing the heart of stone, so I would put the regeneration in there with them. Also, I would add with them the Justification which is to be cleansed with His Blood and Glorification to the inward man all simitaneously. The outward man or the flesh will receive its Glorification in the resurrection.

I think that about covers it Jauthor but its not my list. It is how I see God does it.

Ok...then its like this..
God draws all men to Him...
Men then chose if they want good or evil.
If they chose good/God they believe
So then they are elected
After they are elected they are predestine
Then regeneration
Then justification is being cleansed by the blood and glorification happen just after this.


Is this the order as you see it?

 

[Brother Bob]

James, you put them in a order. I believe that when you are saved all these things happen to you after you believe. Do you understand. I am not one who follows a succession of order of things but believe as the theif on the cross, it was a moment of time. Hope this makes it more clear. When you think of me, think about the theif on the cross, ok?

So then they are elected
After they are elected they are predestine
Then regeneration
Justification being cleansed by the blood glorification happen just after this.
These most definitly are simitaneously.

I was wondering how you separate them by time or what? Could you look at someone who had been regenerated and know he had not yet been Justified? How are you able to do this James. I don't have that gift.

 

[Tom Butler]

Some of the things you say we believe alike I would change a little.

The atonement thing I would change a little for I believe Jesus paid the price for all and gave that offering to God but we must believe to receive it and for God to accept the offering and forgive us.

Actually, that's what I meant. Non-Cals hold to a general atonement but applied only to those who believe, thus limited.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, I thought it was Tom. We hear more on here than I heared in a whole lifetime about predestination and election.

 

[Jarthur001]

James, you put them in a order. I believe that when you are saved all these things happen to you after you believe. Do you understand. I am not one who follows a succession of order of things but believe as the theif on the cross, it was a moment of time. Hope this makes it more clear. When you think of me, think about the theif on the cross, ok?

So then they are elected
After they are elected they are predestine
Then regeneration
Justification being cleansed by the blood glorification happen just after this.
These most definitly are simitaneously.

I was wondering how you separate them by time or what? Could you look at someone who had been regenerated and know he had not yet been Justified? How are you able to do this James. I don't have that gift.

where is "believing" and "called"?