A question about Calvinisum

[Jarthur001]

I didn't say there was a guarantee that they would be saved. However I can honestly say salvation is possible for every single one of them and for every other child born into this world. You can't.

I can say this. God is able to save all of mankind. I also know that God does not save all mankind. Who God will save I do not know. I do not think you know..do you? I do not worry as you seem to think I should, for worry helps nothing. I do care. I do want to shre the gospel. I do like to see people saved. Calvinist are very big on missions and not building big churches. I do pray, and I'm sure you do as well.

If we lined up every child that know not of God, I would preach to each one the same message. I would tell them sin has place man in a condemned state before a holy God. I would tell them they are sinners in need of Christ. I would tell them that we all are sinners, but Christ came to save sinners. I would tell them Christ blood washed away sins on the cross. I would ask them to repent and follow Christ and call Christ their Lord. I would tell them salvation is not my works, but only buy Gods grace. I would tell them to trust in God and believe He is the only one that can save them from their sins. Last I would pray for them that God will change their heart and that they will believe.

Will they be saved? That is in the hands of God. I can say salvation is more then just possible. I can say it will indeed happen, if they will trust in God.

There are a few other things I could add to this. But tell me, what major thing could you do, that I have not done to these?

 

[Hanna]

And you can honestly say that while at the same time believing that for some of them there is no hope?

 

[russell55]

And you can honestly say that while at the same time believing that for some of them there is no hope?

Hanna,

I believe there is no hope for exactly the same people you do: those who rebelliously never choose to believe. (In addition, I believe there is no hope for those who never hear the gospel. I'm not sure where you stand on that issue.)

 

[Hanna]

Hanna,

I believe there is no hope for exactly the same people you do: those who rebelliously never choose to believe. (In addition, I believe there is no hope for those who never hear the gospel. I'm not sure where you stand on that issue.)

About those who choose not to believe, I agree, however they must also realize that they are sinners and repent.

As for those who have not heard the gospel. First that is why we have been given the great commission to go and preach to all the world.

Abraham was much like these people you speak of. In Abraham's day, when God first told him to get up and go, there was no gospel, there was no prophecy , but Abraham had faith and believed and his belief IN God counted to him for righteousness.

Abraham didn't know he was "a sinner" because there was no law, no 10 commandments.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But still Abraham inherently knew...

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

They know. Now can they say "I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", probably not, but is this not why we have been commissioned to go into all the world and preach?

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

I believe Gods sovereignty and the freewill of Man are both clearly taught in Scripture.


Election:

John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Freewill:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!



If Scripture is without error and Scripture teaches both, then both must be true, correct?


After sin was introduced, and God entered the garden looking for Adam, what did Adam do?

Genesis 3:10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."

He hid, and Man has been hiding from God ever since.

Revelation 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

We will not come to God on our own, even though we have the freewill to do so. Rather we run from God and the acknowledgement of our sins.

God desires that all of us would come to him, but none of us will come on our own. So God does not choose who will go to hell, we choose hell ourselves. The problem is without God calling us and convicting us of our sins, we will continue in them, thus rejecting God and deserving hell.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

The existence of the World and all that is in it is clear evidence of God, yet we will not come to him without him initiating the call by placing conviction and guilt on our hearts. Therefore God Chooses some of us, for his own Divine reasons and through no merit of our own, to bring to him.


Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.


This is the reason that Man is responsible if he goes to hell, but God deserves all the credit for salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

John 12:

"32": And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[MB]

Hi Hanna;

Do you have scripture for this?

Yes.
The Bible is the work of God for our benefit. Paul said;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Since God is responsible for the word of God and it's purpose. Then who ever first preaches the word to us has the Spirit working in them to work on us. The Holy Spirit being the third person in the God head. Our faith is then the product of the work of God not our own.
Isaiah said our righteousness is filthy rags.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

If our righteousness is filthy rags then we can't be saved by anything we do because it simply isn't good enough.
Paul said;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
We are saved through faith but we are not saved by our own faith but the faith of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are first justified by the faith of Jesus Christ when we put on the righteousness of Christ.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
We have sinned. with out His righteousness we are hopeless.
This righteousness is what God can see when we are judged. If He could see our's we would be thrown out. We wear it like the clothing. Christ said in a parable in Matt 22;
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

That wedding garment is the righteousness of Christ. It's His righteous faith that saves us. Thus faith and hearing and our convincing is all the work of God and not our own.
MB

 

[Brother Bob]

Titus: 2

"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

"15": These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.



Ephesians, chapter 1

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[russell55]

Russell,

Pizza is not bad for you. (Not really bad anyway) I would choose pizza over lutefisk everytime as well. (and I am Norwegian)

Whether the alternatives were good or bad for you was not the point of the illustration. The point of the illustration was just to show that it is possible to have an inability that comes from distaste rather than any funtional problem with one's "chooser". That's the sort of inability we're talking about when we speak of inability to believe. There is absolutely nothing keeping the natural human being from believing except their distaste for God, their rebellion against God, their hostility to him. They could believe if they wanted to, but they don't want to. To them, God seems as appetizing as lutefisk, and so they choose to remain in their sin.

That's why we say inability is moral inability and not functional inability.

 

[Brother Bob]

But, the ones who do believe had their hearts changed by God so they would believe, is that right? I don't think you are telling the whole story. I think Cal do that a lot. Of Course you believe there is no hope for the same as Hana believes but the reason the ones she believes has not hope is because they could believe because they have a choice. The ones you believe have no hope is because they didn't believe also but they couldn't believe because God didn't change their heart so they could believe, according to Calvinism. Big difference.
We all agree the people going to Heaven are the same, its how they got saved is where we differ.

 

[Jarthur001]

Titus: 2

"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

"15": These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Indeed . This is but part of the passage. Lets look at the next few verses as the writer goes into detail.

Titus 3

1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

2To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The order again...
Gods love appeared when Mercy was given to us in that we were regenerated by the Holy Spirit, which He( Holy Spirit) gave mercy abundantly, in that we could justified by His grace.

ASV puts it this way....

4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,

5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Do you now see where what you posted was only part of the message, and that this could be misleading?



In Christ,,James

 

[Hanna]

This morning I am thinking that the c's and the nc's don't differ that much on issues of salvation. Both believe people can and do reject God. Both believe that salvation comes from God. The primary difference seems to be that the c's believe God gives, (and I use that word loosely) salvation to some and the non c's believe He offers salvation to all.

 

[Blammo]

This morning I am thinking that the c's and the nc's don't differ that much on issues of salvation. Both believe people can and do reject God. Both believe that salvation comes from God. The primary difference seems to be that the c's believe God gives, (and I use that word loosely) salvation to some and the non c's believe He offers salvation to all.

Yes, He offers it to all, and gives it to all who will receive it. Amen!

We are saved by grace through faith, not saved by faith through grace. Faith is not a work, the Bible makes that very clear.

Salvation by grace through faith is a gift from God.

 

[Jarthur001]

Ephesians, chapter 1

"13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Again....this is misleading.

The passage in full is talking about blessings we have in Christ.

Ephesians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:

>>>NOTE: This is the start of the list.

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

>>>NOTE: We are blessed for we are choosen to be holy

5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

>>>NOTE: We are blessed for we are forordained to be sons.

6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

>>>NOTE: We are blessed for we are loved

7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

>>>NOTE: We are blessed for we are redeemed

8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

>>>NOTE: We are blessed for we now have Godly wisdom

9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him

>>>NOTE: We are blessed for we now can knew His will

10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,

11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

>>>NOTE: We are blessed for we now have a heritage

12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:

>>>NOTE: We are blessed with hope

13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

>>>NOTE: We are blessed for we are sealed

Notice the list starts with election. Now this is the full picture, and not part as you posted.

 

[Jarthur001]

This morning I am thinking that the c's and the nc's don't differ that much on issues of salvation. Both believe people can and do reject God. Both believe that salvation comes from God. The primary difference seems to be that the c's believe God gives, (and I use that word loosely) salvation to some and the non c's believe He offers salvation to all.

The atonement is limited by both sides, yet there is more fight over the atonement and election then anything.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes, He offers it to all, and gives it to all who will receive it. Amen!

We are saved by grace through faith, not saved by faith through grace. Faith is not a work, the Bible makes that very clear.

Salvation by grace through faith is a gift from God.

I do not disagree with this brother. You just know that I as a Calvinist also place in there election.

ADDED LATER....oops...I reread and now add this...

I see, of course the giving of saving grace to the elect. The offer of salvation is extended to all.

 

[Blammo]

Notice the list starts with election. Now this is the full picture, and not part as you posted.

Explain who the "we" and the "ye" are. In the first 12 verses Paul is talking about "we" and "us" and then in verse 13 he says "in whom ye also trusted...".

 

[Jarthur001]

Explain who the "we" and the "ye" are. In the first 12 verses Paul is talking about "we" and "us" and then in verse 13 he says "in whom ye also trusted...".

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus,

 

[Blammo]

I do not disagree with this brother. You just know that I as a Calvinist also place in there election.

Well, I am sure you agree. But, do you really (as a Calvinist) believe God offers it to all? Would it be honest of me to offer you $1,000,000 dollars if I didn't have it, but I knew you would not take it anyway? It would only be honest if I actually had it. If it was a bonafide offer that I provided for. Even if I knew you would not accept it, I would not offer it unless I meant it.

 

[Blammo]

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus,

Yes, but that does not explain the " ye also..." in verse 13, does it?