A question about Calvinisum

1. Calvinists don't believe that the work of the Spirit is always irresistible. But in the work of regeneration it is.

2. It says nothing about the work of the Spirit in this passage. We know Paul was speaking, but we don't know if the Spirit was working within Agrippa or not. He certainly wasn't changing Agrippa's heart, or Agrippa would have responded differently.

3. It seems the Agrippa was almost persuaded of the reasonableness of Christianity--a sort of mental assent, if you will--but he didn't realize the true value of it or he wouldn't have rejected it.

4. The failure was Agrippa's. It wasn't Paul's because Paul's presentation of the gospel was, in itself, very convincing, yet Agrippa rejected it. If the the Holy Spirit was working in this situation with the purpose of bringing Agrippa to salvation, then of course he failed, because he didn't accomplish his purpose. That's the very definition of failure--not achieving the desired end or result.

The means of salvation is rooted in the righteous character of God. It's not as if God had all kinds of equal alternatives for means and chose the one alternative that fallen human beings won't do. There was no other means that could have been chosen given that God is righteous. That fallen human beings can't produce faith except by way of a heart change doesn't really play into things at all.

Why is faith the only possible means? Because God can't dumb down the requirements of the law and still be righteous. Those requirements are rooted in his own righteous character. He can't require less than perfect works from us. And of course, fallen human beings aren't going to produce perfect works.

That's where Christ comes in. He did the perfect works, he met the requirements of the law, and his perfect works are counted as us meeting the requirements of the law. We recieve his law-keeping on our behalf through faith. Why is faith so perfectly suitable as the means through which we recieve Christ's work? Because faith is ceasing from doing our own works, and trusting in the work of Christ. Faith is the only things that perserves "Christ alone."

And that's the thing that fallen human beings don't like. Our pride makes us want to contribute something. We want to produce some of the grounds for our salvation. But God can't accept our own imperfect works as the grounds (or partial grounds) for salvation and still be righteous. He can only give us Christ's righteousness through faith--through our trust in Christ's work. That since the fall, we invariably don't trust God doesn't mean that God can save us through other means.

Calvinists believe that people are justified (saved) by Christ's work alone, which we recieve through faith. Faith is necessary for salvation. It is indeed "believe and be saved." Regeneration (or being born again) is the first thing in our experience of the salvation process, but regeneration in itself does not save us. We are saved on account of Christ's work, which is received by faith, a faith graciously produced in us by the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

Almost right. Calvinists believe that God offers salvation to all and that he works the necessary means of salvation in some.

 

Jauthor;
The above has a long way to go to include "all men". Once again you have to change the meaning of "all", as usual.

I notice you did not highlight the blue in the following Jauthor!

13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You seem to always have trouble with the word "believe" James?

 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

We don't believe the atonement was limited but Jesus paid the ransom for all but they must believe to be saved. The atonement was presented to God, not man.

Calvinism believes He offered it to all but they can not respond unless God changes their heart. Calvinism believes God changed their heart but did not change the heart of the vast majority of His creation.

 

I have to go to Wal-Mart, but shall return if the good Lord's willing.

 

The atonement is for the covering of sins. In the OT when the blood was placed on the mercy seat, the sins of the people were covered. The passage in Lev says..all the sins of the people.

On the cross we feel Christ was the real atonement. This is why Calvinist say the work of Christ is finished. Christ died as a love act for His people and their sins are covered. This happened when He died. And we believe it worked. The atonement was for a people in particular. If Christ died for all of mankind, then no one has guilt in sins. Therefore all are on their way to heaven, if this be the case.


Therefore freewillers say that Christ work on the cross was not real, but only a picture of what is possible. They say Christ died for all men, but the atonement is limited to those who believe.

 

The offer is real. Anyone that comes to God and wants to be saved, will in fact be saved. The fact is...Romans 9...No one seeks afte God. No one comes. Therefore election.

 

2 Peter 3:9 has been addressed 3 times on this thread to show this is taken out of cotext by freewillers. No need to talk about it again.

 

No, he makes the offer, "Believe and be saved" to all, and he means it. On this, calvinists and non-calvinists agree. Calvinists just say that, based on the testimony of scripture, there's more to it than that. The offer, in and of itself, isn't enough to actually save anyone, not because the offer isn't genuine, and not because
God really wouldn't save anyone who believed, but because fallen people invariably reject the offer. In order for anyone to be saved, more is required of God than just offering salvation through faith: we also need God to work faith within us.

 

Not so...another misleading statement.

Election is not salvation. One must believe to be saved. You posted verse 13 as if that was it. I showed that there was other things in the context you did not address. Again we look at the order.....

Election by God..
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Now let me ask you Bob.
Based on this passage who elected?
When did election take place?

 

Why do you feel it does not? Verse 13 is addressing verse 11.

11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:

13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

NIV..

Amp..

 

why does it take so much mumbo jumbo to tell people that unless God chooses to change your heart, you are hell bound?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
WHAT? Am I reading that right? Are you saying God makes an offer He doesn't mean or that He doesn't intend to fulfill??

Look in Acts 17, Paul's sermon to the philosophers on Mars Hill.

In v.30 Paul says, "and now God commands all men everywhere to repent."

Paul, who taught us almost all we know about election, says God calls on everyone to repent. The offer was sincere. He looked right in the eyes of those present and said God commands every one of them to repent.

All Calvinists agree with Paul.

 

I guess you are saying to "believe" is 4th when the scripture says it is the first thing you must do.

Tell you the truth James I think to believe is first and the saving part is all up to God.

For instance, I find it hard to separate justification and sanctification (that is by the blood of Christ). I believe that all men are called and when we believe, then predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, Justified and Santification and then Glorification in the last day. And it all equals being "born again".
After belief from the heart and God decides to add you to the church, I think the rest all happen at once except the Glorification and I believe that takes place inwardly but the outward man must wait on his change. It couldn't take but a moment for the theif on the right side of Christ received it in a moment. amen, That should tell all of you that God is not like man, it may take us a while, but when God decides to add us to the church, it only takes a moment.

How do you answer "such as should be saved". Does that mean anything to you?
Also, how do you explain the scriptures that say "after you have believed, then are you sealed"?

 

Tom, we believe the offer is sincere also. Its just that we believe all men can repent if they will "believe".

All of you will never remove the word "believe", for it is the heart and soul of receiving Salvation.

 

We are all naturally hell bound because of our sin. It has nothing to do with what God did or didn't do for us. Hell bound is our natural condition.

 

More evasion! Why not tell what you really believe that those who escape Hell is because God decided to change their heart for no reason whatsoever and let the rest go on to Hell.

 

Believing is the first thing we must do. The first four are things God does.

People aren't sealed until after they believe. We are justified through faith, and on the basis of that justification our inheritance as adopted children is assured.