A question about Calvinisum

[Jarthur001]

The point is the "elect" is can be wide open also, but in context this phrase is attached to believing jews.

Webdog...

it was everyone else on the thread that has stated that election means chosen..and that context gives us the meaning. This is wide openness.

It was YOU that keeps wanting to limit it to only the jews. :BangHead: :BangHead:

 

[Brother Bob]

Not if it includes all those covenants James. I am sure I agree with some but not all. To be honest the term of "covenant theology" is new to me. Maybe you could give me a little guide to what it all means and I could answer better.
I believe in the Law Covenant and I believe in the Grace Covenant. I also believe there was a time before the Law Covenant where they were a law unto themselve by their consecious accusing or excusing of course by the spirit of God.
I believe the Commandments were brought into the Body Church or Grace Church and established in the hearts and minds of men and the righteous of that law is fulfilled in us. I do not hold to the mosatic law of the different materials in clothing, mens apparell, washing of the pots and pans so to speak.
Tell me what the covenant Theology entails and I can give you a better answer.
As far as the church. I believe Jesus set up the New and Living way and as He told Peter; upon this Rock I build my church. I think He was the "Rock". I believe He took the remnant of the old church and combined them with the new and living way to make twain "One". I could say a lot more but I think you get the picture.

As all that happened before the Grace covenant under the OT, I believe to be a shadow of the Grace Covenant. The offerings, representing the death of Christ, The temple representing the body of Christ. The place called the Holiest place of all being a shadow of the "real Holiest place of all". The second vail as being the death that only Jesus could pay. I believe as long as there has been faith there has been a church but not the Church that Jesus set up but was incorpurated into the Grace Church and was used to set up the Grace church, the foundation being the apostles and the prophets and Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone.

 

[Jarthur001]

Not if it includes all those covenants James. I am sure I agree with some but not all. To be honest the term of "covenant theology" is new to me. Maybe you could give me a little guide to what it all means and I could answer better.
I believe in the Law Covenant and I believe in the Grace Covenant. I also believe there was a time before the Law Covenant where they were a law unto themselve by their consecious accusing or excusing of course by the spirit of God.
I believe the Commandments were brought into the Body Church or Grace Church and established in the hearts and minds of men and the righteous of that law is fulfilled in us. I do not hold to the mosatic law of the different materials in clothing, mens apparell, washing of the pots and pans so to speak.
Tell me what the covenant Theology entails and I can give you a better answer.
As far as the church. I believe Jesus set up the New and Living way and as He told Peter; upon this Rock I build my church. I think He was the "Rock". I believe He took the remnant of the old church and combined them with the new and living way to make twain "One". I could say a lot more but I think you get the picture.

Covenant theology's includes the relation of Old Testament Israel with the New Testament church as ONE choosen people.

I do not know it well....but it goes like this.

There was once a covenant of works. This was only in the garden. After the fall of man salvation comes though grace..the covenant of grace. The Jews were the chosen people of the past, and now the church is the choosen people. In covenant theology there is only one church..church used as group...not used as we use it.

Most of the time covenant theology is linked to reform. But this is not the case.
Below is a link to Arminian covenant theology.

http://www.fwponline.cc/v18n2reasonera.html

Anyway...covenant theology teaches the LORD of the Covenant rules. This means God always has a covenant with his people. God also has a "Mediator"..one person to speak with God on behalf of the people.
Adamic Covenant ...Mediator Adam

The Noahic Covenent
(Genesis 8:20-9:17) Mediator Noah

The Abrahamic Covenant ....Mediator Abraham

The Sinaitic Covenant ...Mediator Moses

The Davidic Covenant...Mediator David/Samuel

The New Covenant...Mediator Christ

With this goes....(this has a name below...but I do not know what it is called.)

a. Adam
i. divine benevolence: Garden of Eden, etc.
ii. human responsibility: forbidden fruit
b. Noah
i. divine benevolence: rescued Noah and family from flood
ii. human responsibility: “be fruitful and multiply”
c. Abraham
i. divine benevolence: promise of blessing
ii. human responsibility: “walk before me [God] and be blameless
d. Moses
i. divine benevolence: rescued Israel from Egypt
ii. human responsibility: full obedience
e. David
i. divine benevolence: made David king
ii. human responsibility: remain loyal, keep law/commands
f. New
i. divine benevolence: saved by grace
ii. human responsibility: good works

 

[PreachTREE]

CT suggests that the Church is the New Israel and that baptism is the new circumcision.

Dispensationalists believe in a literal national Israel. Currently we are under the dispensation of grace (church age) where there is no jew nor gentile. After the church age there will once again be a special dealing with literal Israel.

MILLENNIUM

Promised Ruler= Fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant, Christ
Promised Land= Fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant
Promised Reign= Fulfillment of the Palestian Covenant

CTs would not take the above so literal.

 

[Brother Bob]

You can put me in the No colmun James.
I beliieve we are in the Grace Covenant now and that when the time comes that God has set, He will judge this world in righteous and receive the Church unto Himself in Heaven.
As I said before, I believe when Jesus came to His own and they received Him not, but as many as did He gave them power to become the sons of God. I believe this to be the remnant of Israel and was included in Christ setting up His Church. I do believe in the "old" church in the wilderness but the scripture says they twain (being them and us) became as one. I believe that when Christ died His blood flowed back to them under the Law who had faith and died in faith believing and if still flowing forward today until God says that "time shall be no more".
No, I don't believe in practically none of these happenings I hear on BB in the end of time. I believe it will be a quick work the Lord will do when He come in the Cloud of Glory. I believe He will receive His church as His bride and take Her home to Heaven and pass judgement on the devil and his angels and this world. I believe this world will pass away with a great noise and death and hell will stand before the Great White Throne of God and be judged and cast into a lake of fire and brimstone along with the devil, the unbelievers, those who make a like and them who worketh abomination where they will be tormented for ever.

 

[Jarthur001]

You can put me in the No colmun James.
I beliieve we are in the Grace Covenant now and that when the time comes that God has set, He will judge this world in righteous and receive the Church unto Himself in Heaven.
As I said before, I believe when Jesus came to His own and they received Him not, but as many as did He gave them power to become the sons of God. I believe this to be the remnant of Israel and was included in Christ setting up His Church. I do believe in the "old" church in the wilderness but the scripture says they twain (being them and us) became as one. I believe that when Christ died His blood flowed back to them under the Law who had faith and died in faith believing and if still flowing forward today until God says that "time shall be no more".
No, I don't believe in practically none of these happenings I hear on BB in the end of time. I believe it will be a quick work the Lord will do when He come in the Cloud of Glory. I believe He will receive His church as His bride and take Her home to Heaven and pass judgement on the devil and his angels and this world. I believe this world will pass away with a great noise and death and hell will stand before the Great White Throne of God and be judged and cast into a lake of fire and brimstone along with the devil, the unbelievers, those who make a like and them who worketh abomination where they will be tormented for ever.

You do sound more Covenant than Dispensational...but I understand you on that end time thing. I feel that is their biggest weakness. I do feel God has a place for the Jews someday. But maybe its because I was rasied as a dispensationalists. Or maybe I'm a mix....

Oh well...just asking.

 

[Allan]

You do sound more Covenant than Dispensational...but I understand you on that end time thing. I feel that is their biggest weakness. I do feel God has a place for the Jews someday. But maybe its because I was rasied as a dispensationalists. Or maybe I'm a mix....

Oh well...just asking.

Your a Mix alright! :laugh: :laugh:

WHoa, duck!! :tonofbricks:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Your a Mix alright! :laugh: :laugh:

WHoa, duck!! :tonofbricks:

Allan.... I can't believe you are calling James a duck. :laugh:

 

[johnp.]

Can I play?

Hello Hanna.

Concerning predestination/election...does this mean that there are those born into the world for whom there is no hope. That no amount of prayer or witnessing will make any difference because God does not/will not/did not choose them?

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

Omniscience means God still creates people He knows are going to Hell. Since He knows who is and who isn't going to Hell then your prayers cannot affect the outcome either way. ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Rom 9:18.

If God wasn't willing that any perish then why did He create those He knew would end up in Hell leah2?

Don't stop praying though. Prayers are factored into His plan. If you find yourself praying for another then hope. He lets us all take part in the round up. (I only read the first page.)

john.

 

[Pauluso]

bingo. That's exactly what it means.

Dear Helen,

I think that you have a very poor way of understanding this point of doctrine.

 

[johnp.]

I think that you have a very poor way of understanding this point of doctrine.

How is that Pauluso? It's the very thing Calvin says.

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

I think Helen is right. Esau is a demonstration of God's dealings with those He hates.

john.

 

[Jarthur001]

How is that Pauluso? It's the very thing Calvin says.

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

I think Helen is right. Esau is a demonstration of God's dealings with those He hates.

john.

WOW...its the great johnp.
welcome back. Please notice my posting numbers are up. I had to post 3 times the amount with you gone.



In Christ..James

 

[Tom Butler]

Oh wow, he's baaaaack!

johnp, I join with James in welcoming you back. Five months is a long time to be away. And James is right about his posts. I don't think he's slept since you've been gone.

 

[hfarmer]

Calvanism

Why would anyone adopt a theology from a man so cruel as to burn a man at the stake because of his beliefs?

hfarmer

 

[whatever]

Why would anyone adopt a theology from a man so cruel as to burn a man at the stake because of his beliefs?

hfarmer

Hello h,

That's quite a first post. Do you really want to know the answer, or are you just trying to score a few ad hominem points?

 

[Rippon]

I guess he's too old to be a Howard Stern plant .

 

[Tom Butler]

Why would anyone adopt a theology from a man so cruel as to burn a man at the stake because of his beliefs?

hfarmer

Welcome to a fellow Western Kentuckian.

A couple of reponses:

1. I know no Calvinist who adopted his theology from Calvin. We cite the scriptures, not Calvin.

2. Calvin did not burn Servetus at the stake because of his beliefs.

3. Calvin did not burn Servetus at the stake for any reason.

 

[johnp.]

Hello James - Tom.

Thanks for the welcome it means a lot to me.
I've been on holiday. Is it really five months? HaHa! I wasn't watching the clock, sorry James.

Business as usual is it?

Hello hfarmer, nice to meet you.

Why would anyone...

...by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 1 Cor 15:10. for it is God who works in us to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13. PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

That is why anyone does anything.

...adopt a theology from a man...

Theology is the study of God not the adopted beliefs of a man. We believe what we believe because it is scriptural. We are here to talk about Jesus, there is no benefit in discussing people and their ways, we all fall short.

...so cruel as to burn a man at the stake because of his beliefs?

Bearing false witness is still a crime you know? Be sure of the facts and do not let your bias dictate another's guilt, get the facts.

john.

 

[Benjamin]

Well, looky here what the cat drug in! Hello John.

Theology is the study of God not the adopted beliefs of a man. We believe what we believe because it is scriptural.

Yes, we do believe what “we” believe because it is scriptural. It is important to realize that man is building models that are philosophical and theological assumptions in their position as to God’s providence according to scriptural evidences and truths. Simply, if you camp out on one verse you are not a systematic theologian. So what is the truth of God’s nature and character greatly factor in as a free will belief in the nature we were truly made in seen in the His truths of being instructed to choose from an abundance of scripture given in the Spirit of Truth, ie His nature.

 

[Jarthur001]

Simply, if you camp out on one verse you are not a systematic theologian.

I do like that one line..