A question about Calvinisum

[Brother Bob]

Hello Bob,

1st...Believing God is in control of the weather, does not make a person hyper-Calvinist. Most free-will people would agree that God brings the rains and winds. If you do not believe it, that is something you must answer to God to.

I'll not address your list of verses. Most have been addressed many times before. Some already on this thread. Look at the post before your last post as a case in point.

But I would like to ask you. If God does not control the weather, who does?

What a question James. You always in a spirit of discourse. I think when a flood wall collapse and a storm are a lot of difference but if you can't see that then ok.

Honestly, if all people do not deserve hell, what do all people deserve?

Even the Calvinist believe except maybe you James that before the fall man was not deserving of Hell.

Mans free will is to blame. Free will is not a good thing, for free will choose sin.

Rom 8:20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

God created man James, not me.

In our mack truck story.....
If you got ran over by a truck, is it only because you sinned or does this happen to good people too?
If you are hit by a truck, was God surprised or did He know it before hand?
If you die from this truck, could God have stopped the truck?

You are the one who said God decreed it or at least said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So, if I get run over with a Mack truck, God decreed it to happen?

Just as much has hurricane katrina was decreed.

I take from this you are saying God decreed me to get run over with a Mack truck if that is what happens to me, which is Hyper-Calvinism.

Babies in Hell? Some Calvinist have stated on here they believe that could be the case and some said not. Seems to me you said you think they went to Heaven but if God sent them to Hell it was alright with you, but I could be mistaken. Anyway John Calvin said it.

 

[Jarthur001]

What a question James. You always in a spirit of discourse. I think when a flood wall collapse and a storm are a lot of difference but if you can't see that then ok.

OK. Who brings storms?

You are the one who said God decreed it or at least said He decreed

Indeed. You disagreed.
I was just asking if you thought God had the power to stop the truck.

 

[Brother Bob]

Indeed. You disagreed.
I was just asking if you thought God had the power to stop the truck.

If He had the power to have it run over me, He certainly could of had it not run over me. Silly,

God is in control of the storms but the Katrina disaster was because of poor wall construction and a collapse thereof. If they had of put the wall up right it would not of collapsed. If they had not of built in flood prone area, it would not of mattered. So God did not cause all that death and destruction, man did. Watch them move right back in with the walls still not able to protect them and it still is a flood prone area. Is God at fault for man putting himself in danger. Such as running out in front of a Mack truck, of which you said God decreed. Silly again,

Do babies go to hell? Verse please. Our youth pastor and wife just lost their 1st baby. His statement..."I do not understand why Lord, but I know you are in full control".....and stood and preached the very next day.

So apparently, you believe that God decreed that your pastor's baby die also. I thought through the sin of Adam is why it had to die.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hanna, I want you to notice who is calling another brother in Christ silly. Remember this person's name. You can decide if you want to believe his theology. Instead of addressing Bro. James in a respectful manner, he attacks him. Some will revert to that when they realize they are failing to defend their faulty theology, instead of using solid Biblical evidence. One of the most respected theologians who defend the *free will* side of the argument is Allan. Look to him if that is your bent. Grace and peace

 

[Brother Bob]

Hanna, I want you to notice who is calling another brother in Christ silly. Remember this person's name. You can decide if you want to believe his theology. Instead of addressing Bro. James in a respectful manner, he attacks him. Some will revert to that when they realize they are failing to defend their faulty theology, instead of using solid Biblical evidence. One of the most respected theologians who defend the *free will* side of the argument is Allan. Look to him if that is your bent. Grace and peace

Hanna, I don't want to involve you in this so I will just say it is obvious who takes the word silly, which it is silly to say God caused me to run out in front of a mack truck. But look who took it up on his own, and jumped in on another person's reply to a post, to make a big deal out of it instead of dealing with the fact of whether God decreed me to run out in front of a mack truck or not.
Yea, you can remember my name and when the theology gets silly, I will say so regardless who it is. Even if it is reformedbeliever.

I especially think it is silly to believe that God created the vast majority of people to burn without a chance to escape that fiery place of punishment for ever and ever. My God is a God of Love.

You see how easy it is to rip their theology apart, just call them silly and they go to peices. Jesus said, be ye steadfast and unmovable, always abounding in the word of the Lord.

This is the 15th page and reformer couldn't find anything wrong with my posts until now which is the word "silly". "desperate".

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hanna, I don't want to involve you in this so I will just say it is obvious who takes the word silly, which it is silly to say God caused me to run out in front of a mack truck. But look who took it up on his own, and jumped in on another person's reply to a post, to make a big deal out of it instead of dealing with the fact of whether God decreed me to run out in front of a mack truck or not.
Yea, you can remember my name and when the theology gets silly, I will say so regardless who it is. Even if it is reformedbeliever.

I especially think it is silly to believe that God created the vast majority of people to burn without a chance to escape that fiery place of punishment for ever and ever. My God is a God of Love.

You see how easy it is to rip their theology apart, just call them silly and they go to peices. Jesus said, be ye steadfast and unmovable, always abounding in the word of the Lord.

Another dishonest misrepresentation. I searched this thread and no one has said God caused anyone to run out in front of a truck and get run over. We said He decreed it to happen if it happens. Big difference. God allowed it to happen. He allowed the flood walls to collapse in New Orleans too. He didn't necessarily make it happen. I don't have a problem with God killing anyone however. He is God. If He decides to kill someone I suppose that is His priority. I think in most instances when many men, women, and children were killed, it was by His command for other men to do it. Annanias and Saphira may be an example where God directly killed them. Get your story straight Bob. I don't have a problem addressing any of your faulty theology. I've done it before, no problem doing it again.

 

[webdog]

Allan,

I know this was addressed to Tom, but I wanted to say something. I use the word "freewiller"..(I call it a word..but I'm not sure it really is)...for many on the BB post as if they are Pelagians. Pelagianism is such a awful name to call a person, so I tone it down by using freewiller. Or that was my hopes anyway. I thought by using such a name, that those that hold to hyper-free will of man, would see their error. Yet some poster ware the "freewiller" lable with pride.

I just wanted to say, though I have used the word toward you in the past, it is just because I have gotten use to using it. I do not feel it applies to you going by your post. If I slip and use it again, please understand, I am just grouping you as a non-Calvinist and not a real freewiller.


In Christ...James

Freewill doesn't = pelagian, and I think you know that. The will is either free to respond to God, or it is enslaved in doing so. Pelagian has nothing to do with it whatsoever, and is a label you have attached to "free will".

 

[reformedbeliever]

I especially think it is silly to believe that God created the vast majority of people to burn without a chance to escape that fiery place of punishment for ever and ever. My God is a God of Love.

God didn't create anyone without a chance to be saved Brother Bob. He said that if you believe and have faith in Jesus Christ as your savior that you would be saved. You really do not understand Calvinism.

God is not only a God of Love Bob. He is also a God that will judge sin. He is also a God of wrath, and there are some that He hates and will send to hell. Be sure to teach all of God's attributes Bob. He will honor that if you will.

 

[Hanna]

A lot to read

There is a lot of new stuff to read, but just a quick post about a couple of things I picked up on quickly scanning new posts.

First, the silly stuff. I ignore that stuff and try really hard to converse without doing that or listening to it. I love a debate generally, but the purpose is to exchange ideas and to learn and teach, not to attack.

Second, you were talking about the weather. Sure God is soverign and in control of everything, but I do not think he decrees for every raindrop to fall and determines where it will fall. He created this universe and he also designed it. I think he designed things to operate in a certain way, like the rain/evaporation/cloud thing, and so long as man doesn't do something to screw that up all is well. When man starts messing around, like building faulty dams then problems arise. God did not cause Katrina to happen. He did not cause 9/11 to happen. He allowed both, yes, because man builds faulty dams and because evil does what evil does.

Third, you were talking about the woman that lost the baby. I have to wonder about the Calvinist. How do you feel about having children, believing that your child may not be among the "elect"?

 

[webdog]

Third, you were talking about the woman that lost the baby. I have to wonder about the Calvinist. How do you feel about having children, believing that your child may not be among the "elect"?

This is a point calvinists don't like. They love to use the "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" from before birth as proof text God hates some prior to them ever being born. If this is the case, there is a chance I could love my son more than God can...a God who IS love. Judas' mother loved her son...God didn't. Pharaoh's mother loved her son...God didn't. You get the picture, and it is not one of John 3:16.

 

[Brother Bob]

Another dishonest misrepresentation. I searched this thread and no one has said God caused anyone to run out in front of a truck and get run over. We said He decreed it to happen if it happens. Big difference. God allowed it to happen. He allowed the flood walls to collapse in New Orleans too. He didn't necessarily make it happen. I don't have a problem with God killing anyone however. He is God. If He decides to kill someone I suppose that is His priority. I think in most instances when many men, women, and children were killed, it was by His command for other men to do it. Annanias and Saphira may be an example where God directly killed them. Get your story straight Bob. I don't have a problem addressing any of your faulty theology. I've done it before, no problem doing it again. __________________

You are the one who is making a false misrepentation for here is what was said:

You are the one who said God decreed it or at least said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So, if I get run over with a Mack truck, God decreed it to happen?

Just as much has hurricane katrina was decreed.

This may be too deep for you to understand reformed but maybe you can get someone to explain it to you.

I don't have a problem with God killing anyone however. He is God. If He decides to kill someone I suppose that is His priority. I think in most instances when many men, women, and children were killed, it was by His command for other men to do it. Annanias and Saphira may be an example where God directly killed them. Get your story straight Bob.

What a statement from a Christian!!!

Annanias and Saphira lied to the Church, (big difference) but guess that is too deep for you also.

 

[Brother Bob]

God didn't create anyone without a chance to be saved Brother Bob. He said that if you believe and have faith in Jesus Christ as your savior that you would be saved. You really do not understand Calvinism.

God is not only a God of Love Bob. He is also a God that will judge sin. He is also a God of wrath, and there are some that He hates and will send to hell. Be sure to teach all of God's attributes Bob. He will honor that if you will.

You Calvinist constantly misrepresent your theology. Here you are saying that all men had a chance to be saved. When I know, and have seen you post where that God had to come in and change your heart before you can be saved and that God only comes in and changes the heart of those that were chosen before the foundation of the world. I have seen you post, that all men are worthy of death but God chose to change the heart of the elect so they would believe and be saved. I have saw you post, where God lets the rest be destroyed.
Now, you say that all men had a chance to be saved. You talk both ways for all to see. Over and over, you talk this way and think we can't see your talking two ways.

Your quote: reformedbeliever,

Big difference. God allowed it to happen. He allowed the flood walls to collapse in New Orleans too. He didn't necessarily make it happen. I don't have a problem with God killing anyone however. He is God. If He decides to kill someone I suppose that is His priority

You always cross yourself, always so who will take you seriously?

 

[webdog]

Hannah, I started a thread in February that shows the five points (TULIP) explained from neither a calvinist nor arminian. It's good (but long) reading, but goes into good detail on each "petal"...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=104489&postcount=1

 

[psalms109:31]

Chosen

Psalms I see no quarreling. Then again, maybe I'm deft. I see people reading the same scriptures and believing different things as a result. As for me, I try to understand what God is saying when I read and sometimes it is not real clear so I seek help from others and the best way for me to figure things out is to get as much input from others as possible, especially when it is not black and white at times.

The main thing I want you to see in those verses was the chosen. That God has chosen the weak, those who depend on Jesus, not on election.

Jesus had no problem bringing sinners to the truth in need of Him, the main problem He had was with pharisees who knew everything and wouldn't take guidence from a carpenter's Son.

Some people are so stuburn and stiff knecked, not even God can change thier mind.

 

[Hanna]

WebDog, I shall go read it...thanks

 

[reformedbeliever]

You are the one who is making a false misrepentation for here is what was said:

You are the one who said God decreed it or at least said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So, if I get run over with a Mack truck, God decreed it to happen?

Just as much has hurricane katrina was decreed.

This may be too deep for you to understand reformed but maybe you can get someone to explain it to you.

What a statement from a Christian!!!

Annanias and Saphira lied to the Church, (big difference) but guess that is too deep for you also.

You are misrepresenting me again Bob. That was James who said that... not me. I happen to agree with him however. If it happens, God decrees it. That may be too deep for you to understand.

All men sin. When God killed men, women, children, and babies in the flood, it was God who did it. Get over it. He is God!

Now, I'm going to an office Christmas party. Have a good day Bob. I'll be more than happy to address you later. :thumbsup:

 

[Hanna]

Going to read, but could both the Cal and the non-Cal address this verse.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Hanna]

Oh boyyyyyyy:/

Hannah, I started a thread in February that shows the five points (TULIP) explained from neither a calvinist nor arminian. It's good (but long) reading, but goes into good detail on each "petal"...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=104489&postcount=1

Man, when you say long, you do mean longggggggggggggggggggggggggg. I will be back when my eyes give out.......sheesh;/ Did I ask for this? Yes, I guess I did Well I never was considered to be the smartest turnip on the truck;/

 

[Brother Bob]

You are misrepresenting me again Bob. That was James who said that... not me. I happen to agree with him however. If it happens, God decrees it. That may be too deep for you to understand.

I didn't say it was you. Again, you are wrong but enough is enough. You don't want to debate, you want to quarrel. This thread was going very well until this was posted.

reformedbeliever:
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Southern Oklahoma
Posts: 525

RE: A question about Calvinisum

Hanna, I want you to notice who is calling another brother in Christ silly. Remember this person's name. You can decide if you want to believe his theology. Instead of addressing Bro. James in a respectful manner, he attacks him. Some will revert to that when they realize they are failing to defend their faulty theology, instead of using solid Biblical evidence. One of the most respected theologians who defend the *free will* side of the argument is Allan. Look to him if that is your bent. Grace and peace


BBob:
Everyone including Jauthor and I were doing very well until you jumped in and posted the above and created controversary. I don't wish to quarrel with you. I know what you believe and you don't believe all men could be saved because you believe God will not change the hearts of the majority of men so they can believe according to your theology. So, therefore you believe God is going to let the vast majority of men go to the Lake without a chance to have their hearts changed so they can be saved.

 

[russell55]

Second, you were talking about the weather. Sure God is soverign and in control of everything, but I do not think he decrees for every raindrop to fall and determines where it will fall.

I think you would have a hard time supporting this view of God's role in his creation from scripture. After all, Jesus says that not even a sparrow falls "to the ground apart from your Father’s will." God is the one who numbers the hairs on you head. "We may throw the dice, but the Lord determines how they fall." (Proverbs 16:33) Your plans for tomorrow won't come about unless God wills it. In fact, you will only be living tomorrow if it is the Lord's will (James 4).

God did not cause Katrina to happen. He did not cause 9/11 to happen. He allowed both, yes, because man builds faulty dams and because evil does what evil does.

But God could have prevented either one of these, and he chose not to, and I don't think his decision not to prevent them was a disinterested or arbitrary one. He decided not to prevent them because he had reason not to prevent them. That makes those things part of God's plan, or part of what he ordained or decreed or determined to happen. That's what decreed or ordained or determined means. Things that are decreed or ordained are things that God has decided will happen in the history of his creation. They can be immediately caused by God (like when God struck Ananaias and Sapphira) or they can be immediately caused by other factors.