A question about Calvinisum

[Jarthur001]

Prove it not using Scripture written to Jews.

Weddog..

You ask this every other month, you are shown, then you must forget.

Paul who was called to be the apostle to the Gentiles.

And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

One of the places Paul setup churches was in Asia Minor. This place was know well for pagan worship. One city was a setting a center of pagan Diana worship. As many pagans turned to Christianity in this city, those that manufactured idols and shrines, saw their profit diminishing. These craftsmen stirred up the pagans against Paul and his companions.

While in Rome Paul wrote a letter to the group of believes in Asia Minor. This city is Ephesus.

Who went to this church in Ephesus? Well some Jews went there, but mostly Gentiles.
Eph 4

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Now notice who the book was writen to just so there will be no mis-understanding

It was writen to the Saints at Ephesus as seen in Eph 1

Ephesians 1

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:

Now are saints choosen? Yes as seen below.

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally Posted by Not_hard_to_find
I've tried to follow the postings and I still get caught up in a circular motion. It appears to me that Calvinism teaches election is by God. God is sovereign. A non-elected person cannot be saved, for God has predetermined this.

If elected -- why the remaining items?

bump...waiting for a calvinist's response...

I'm not sure if you are asking me, or asking God.

God elects. We must believe to be saved. This has been covered before. I can write a longer reply later, but I do not have the time this afternoon.

 

[russell55]

In the first place, God had to be partial, or "luck of the draw", you have not been able to give any other reason?

I gave you the other reason: in order that God's purpose of election might continue. In other words, so that the choice would originate in God, and depend on God, and not on us.

Second place, do you see how many times you used believe, but don't want to apply it, when it comes to Salvation, when Jesus said "except ye believe, ye shall all likewise perish"?

Huh? I used the word believe so many times because I truly believe that people must believe! Believing is necessary to salvation! If people don't believe they will perish! No one is saved unless they believe! How can I affirm it any stronger than that?

What do you mean that I "don't want to apply it"?

 

[russell55]

Prove it not using Scripture written to Jews.

But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

The choice (or election) is for salvation. The means by which that salvation comes about is the setting apart of the Spirit and faith in the truth.

 

[russell55]

I've tried to follow the postings and I still get caught up in a circular motion. It appears to me that Calvinism teaches election is by God. God is sovereign. A non-elected person cannot be saved, for God has predetermined this.

If elected -- why the remaining items?

Because God still uses means to save people. He chooses them for salvation (election) and then works their salvation through means: regeneration, faith and repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification, etc. And of course, he provides the grounds for salvation, too: the death of Christ on the cross.

God's elect would not be saved apart from all those things. Those are sure steps, because God doesn't start something and not finish it, but they are still necessary steps.

 

[Brother Bob]

I gave you the other reason: in order that God's purpose of election might continue. In other words, so that the choice would originate in God, and depend on God, and not on us.

Same answer either partial or enie menie might moe.

God's elect would not be saved apart from all those things. Those are sure steps, because God doesn't start something and not finish it, but they are still necessary steps.

Low and behold the man believes in works after all!

 

[Allan]

According to Calvinistic Theology: God choose 'some' and left the others

But God choose those 'some' (according to Calvinism) not based on any of them but according to His purpose and will nor does God arbitrarily choose people at random. Calvinism in choosing the 'some'...let us look shall we:

Is God a respector of persons as says the scriptures?
1. God chose me over someone else...This shows God IS a respector of persons (This against Scripture)

2. It also shows there is something about or in me that is different from that other person because God 'could' have used them just as easily but chose me. Why me?? For His purpose of course and His purpose didn't include them. God is still a respect of person (This still against scritpure)

So far we see it doesn't match up scripturally nor does it match Calvinism claims to God choosing but it has nothing to do with you.

If God could have chosen anyone to fulfill what ever God purposed then we would see God as most definately arbitrary.
Yet we note that there IS something about you that displaces the other in Gods plan but the Calvinstic can not tell you what that is execpt the cryptic "It is Gods plan, pleasure, and purpose" but they don't know anything about this aspect of God nor can they ever know. Us non-cals can show what they can not...what is the purpose, pleasure, and plan that evades the Cals. and it is based on
"...us being IN Christ before the foundations of the World..." We are different and chosen because God saw us IN Christ at the same place God saw Christ as that slain Lamb. No one could be in Christ until that Lamb was Slain and only those IN CHrist are saved.

What was the difference between me and that other person is quiet simply John 1:12 To as many as RECIEVED Him it was TO THEM He gave the right to be called the children of God, TO THEM WHO BELIEVED on His name.

God is no respecter of persons and salvation is available to all but not ALL will come unto Him.

>>>EDITED for clarification<<<

 

[J.D.]

According to Calvinistic Theology: God choose 'some' and left the others

But God choose those 'some' (according to Calvinism) not based on any of them but according to His purpose and will nor does God arbitrarily choose people at random. Calvinism in choosing the 'some'...let us look shall we:

Is God a respector of persons as says the scriptures?
1. God chose me over someone else...This shows God IS a respector of persons (This against Scripture)

2. It also shows there is something about or in me that is different from that other person because God 'could' have used them just as easily but chose me. Why me?? For His purpose of course and His purpose didn't include them. God is still a respect of person (This still against scritpure)

So far we see it doesn't match up scripturally nor does it match Calvinism claims to God choosing but it has nothing to do with you.

If God could have chosen anyone to fulfill what ever God purposed then we would see God as most definately arbitrary.
Yet we note that there IS something about you that displaces the other in Gods plan but the Calvinstic can not tell you what that is execpt the cryptic "It is Gods plan, pleasure, and purpose" but they don't know anything about this aspect of God nor can they ever know. Us non-cals can show what they can not...what is the purpose, pleasure, and plan that evades the Cals. and it is based on
"...us being IN Christ before the foundations of the World..." We are different and chosen because God saw us IN Christ at the same place God saw Christ as that slain Lamb. No one could be in Christ until that Lamb was Slain and only those IN CHrist are saved.

What was the difference between me and that other person is quiet simply John 1:12 To as many as RECIEVED Him it was TO THEM He gave the right to be called the children of God, TO THEM WHO BELIEVED on His name.

God is no respecter of persons and salvation is available to all but not ALL will come unto Him.

>>>EDITED for clarification<<<

"who WERE BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD"

 

[Brother Bob]

Anyone that is saved and born again is "of God". But they must "believe" to get there. We never did say or thing we could save or born again ourselves.

 

[Rippon]

God is not a respector of persons like people are inclined to be . The Lord has no special regard for someone because of their wealth , looks , status in society or anything else . The tendency of human beings for partiality is demonstrated in James 2 .

But God certainly has His elect ones . If you don't believe that He has His chosen ones you will have to excise a lot of the Bible .

God is not capricious . He is the Master of order . He does what pleases Him . He choses those whom He wants without regard to manmade distinctions .

Not all will come to Him is perfectly correct . No one would come to Him if left to their own power . Whosoever will ? No one will ! The Lord brings those of His choosing to Himself .

John 1:12 is cited by many noncals . They usually are not in the habit of citing John 1:13 : children born not of natural descent , nor of human decision or a husband's will , but born of God .

 

[Brother Bob]

God started out with the chosen Israel "elect" but by and by included the whole world so He is not a respect of person. If it was only Israel or a chosen few then He would be a respect of persons. I mean the truth will stand when the world is on fire.

 

[Rippon]

Al Israel is not elect . The "world" that He came to redeem refers to people from among every nation , tribe and tongue .

 

[Brother Bob]

Could you give me your difinition of "respect of person"?

 

[Rippon]

See # 370 , paragraph one .

 

[Jarthur001]

According to Calvinistic Theology: God choose 'some' and left the others

Indeed ...

But God choose those 'some' (according to Calvinism) not based on any of them but according to His purpose and will nor does God arbitrarily choose people at random. Calvinism in choosing the 'some'...let us look shall we:

This would be wrong, so I agree..lets look.

Is God a respector of persons as says the scriptures?

Indeed it does. The Bible clearly says.."God is no respector of persons". I agree with the statement in the passage and subject where you find this.

1. God chose me over someone else...This shows God IS a respector of persons (This against Scripture)

Indeed it does. This is also how it happens. We also see this in the Bible as we see it. This is called election.

2. It also shows there is something about or in me that is different from that other person because God 'could' have used them just as easily but chose me. Why me?? For His purpose of course and His purpose didn't include them. God is still a respect of person (This still against scritpure)

The only different that you will see in the Bible is that God loves the elect. Why me indeed? For there are better people then I.

So far we see it doesn't match up scripturally nor does it match Calvinism claims to God choosing but it has nothing to do with you.

Wrong...both are true.

If God could have chosen anyone to fulfill what ever God purposed then we would see God as most definately arbitrary.

OK.

Yet we note that there IS something about you that displaces the other in Gods plan but the Calvinstic can not tell you what that is execpt the cryptic "It is Gods plan, pleasure, and purpose" but they don't know anything about this aspect of God nor can they ever know.

One reason, is that this is what the Bible says. Also you can add "love" to that list.

Us non-cals can show what they can not...what is the purpose, pleasure, and plan that evades the Cals. and it is based on "...us being IN Christ before the foundations of the World..."

The old.."in Christ idea". Tell me ...what does "in Christ" mean?

We are different and chosen because God saw us IN Christ at the same place God saw Christ as that slain Lamb. No one could be in Christ until that Lamb was Slain and only those

IN CHrist

are saved.

I knew it... Yes saved means..IN Christ. So we could read we are chosen to be..IN Christ. Or we could read it..We are choosen to be saved. right?

What was the difference between me and that other person is quiet simply John 1:12 To as many as RECIEVED Him it was TO THEM He gave the right to be called the children of God, TO THEM WHO BELIEVED on His name.

Please read the rest of the chapter. Thanks.

God is no respecter of persons and salvation is available to all but not ALL will come unto Him.

This would be wrong.

>>>EDITED for clarification<<<

Edit it some more.

 

[russell55]

What was the difference between me and that other person is quiet simply John 1:12 To as many as RECIEVED Him it was TO THEM He gave the right to be called the children of God, TO THEM WHO BELIEVED on His name.

If God chooses someone for salvation based on their fulfillment of a requirement, then he is a respector of persons.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

If God chooses someone for salvation based on their fulfillment of a requirement, then he is a respector of persons.

Find a "respecter of persons" in the Bible. John 1:12 is in the Bible. It's message is very clear. But, how doesn't election not make God a "respecter of persons?" Some are chosen for eternal life and some are not (only one other choice).

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

The only different that you will see in the Bible is that God loves the elect. Why me indeed? For there are better people then I.

But -- although you think you are among the elect, until judgment, you cannot know for certain, can you?

 

[Brother Bob]

 

[Allan]

If God chooses someone for salvation based on their fulfillment of a requirement, then he is a respector of persons.

Not hardly. For though He desires All to repent (no respecter) not all will. All can and do have the opportunity to repent or not to repent. If God 'chose' some to repent all the while have the ability to make ALL repent - that is a respecter of persons. IF a choice is given this removes the respecter clause as everyone has the opportunity to be and if not it is their decision NOT to be included. So they are judged on what they chose to do with the truth give (not to beleive) just as we are judge on the choice given (to believe). Our salvation is dependent on God to offer, impute, and fulfill IF we would but believe. And guess what...God knows each and everyone who will do so and not do so. See, it is His plan, His good pleasure, and His purpose and it always will be so.