A question about God's justice

[Ray Berrian]

We are talking about theology so let's not just deny His attributes. There are no isolated opinions in this post. Wesley, Wiley, J. Steven Harper, A.W. Tozer, R.A. Torey. Edgar Mullins, William L. Pettingil, James Yoder and other theologians point to a non-distorted view of sovereignty and Divine justice that agrees with my interpretation. You are welcomed to select your Biblical verses; let's review them one by one. It still will fit in with God's Divine justice, easily.

Over emphasis of any one attribute will lead to error in interpreting of His Word. With the Calvinists group it is _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. You guessed it.

Answer: {spelled backward} ytngierevoS

To put you back on center I recommend A.W. Tozer's "The Attributes of God" Christian Publications Inc., Camp Hill, Pennsylvania. Chapter 8 deals with God's Sovereignty on page 143.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

We we get to Heaven and see that some of our loved ones did not make it, God says that He will wipe away all tears. We will, then, probably look on those people as the enemies of the Lord and unworthy of Heaven because of their rebellion. Some sinners have a long, long life in which to either receive Christ or reject Him.

A.W. Tozer said on page 161 of his book, The Attributes of God, 'Beside Him {Christ} will be a ransomed company who chose to go His way; Heaven will not be filled with slaves.' On page 162 he said, 'There will be no conscripts in the armies of Heaven. Everyone will be there because he exercised his sovereign freedom to choose to believe in Jesus Christ and surrender to the will of God.'

 

[Frogman]

Remind me not to read any Tozer.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

I prefer another 'A.W.' if I am going to read from a man.

What is it about Arminians doing (spelling) backwards? Just have a backward (reverse) view huh? Guess so.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I believe A.W. Tozer was a leader in the Christian And Missionary Alliance Church. A great man of God and also a sound denomination as to beliefs, I think, for the most part. He is highly esteemed by many, many Christian people. He goes over ten attributes of God; a good read.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Remind me not to read any Tozer.

Bro. Dallas

I've read Tozer. He does extremely well with some things, but makes major league logical errors with others and ends up bordering on legalism in many cases as a result.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

Who is your A.W.? Just curious.

The brethren seriously need to read some Calvinist sources as to Divine Justice; it might clear up their spiritual myopia.

 

[Ray Berrian]

' . . . major league logical errors . . . '

This is only one man's opinion. If you have a problem with Tozer's view state it. If a person is on the opposite side of a view he or she will find it easy to place the writer's view in the error column. A generalized attack on a writer proves nothing except human bias. And you do not get any credit for church dogma; we like Scriptural exegesis.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

I believe A.W. Tozer was a leader in the Christian And Missionary Alliance Church. A great man of God and also a sound denomination as to beliefs, I think, for the most part. He is highly esteemed by many, many Christian people. He goes over ten attributes of God; a good read.

I don't know these 'churches' nor what their doctrinal position is; sounds ecumenical to me.

Maybe, but if he hypothesizes the sovereignty of man, I would rather not read him.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

ends up bordering on legalism in many cases as a result.

From what I have seen of Arminians here and from my family, this is not a problem with them. Rather it seems this is a requirement to be considered to be of 'sound doctrine.'

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

Who is your A.W.? Just curious.

The brethren seriously need to read some Calvinist sources as to Divine Justice; it might clear up their spiritual myopia.

A.W. Pink

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Justification/justification.htm

 

[Ray Berrian]

A.W. Tozer says, ' . . . it is silly to say that God can do anything. But it is Scriptural to say that God can do anything He wills to do. God is absolutely free-no one can compel Him, no one can hinder Him, no one can stop Him. God has freedom to do as He pleases-always, everywhere and forever.' P.145

' . . . if you walk out of church contrary to the will and way of God, God does not will that you should do it, but He wills that you should be free to do it.' P. 160

'Everyone in Heaven above is there because he chose to go there. No one wakes up to find himself in Heaven by accident, saying, "I never planned to come here." No! It says that the rich man died and in hell he lifted up his eyes; the poor, good man died and went to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22-23). Each of them went where he belonged. When Judas died he went "to his own place" {Acts 1:25}. And when Lazarus died, he went to his place-places they had chosen. So remember this: Whoever is not on God's side is on the losing side.' P. 161

 

[Frogman]

here is some good reading:

http://www.pbministries.org/articles/bonar_h/h_bonar_10.htm

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

A.W. Tozer says, ' . . . it is silly to say that God can do anything. But it is Scriptural to say that God can do anything He wills to do. God is absolutely free-no one can compel Him, no one can hinder Him, no one can stop Him. God has freedom to do as He pleases-always, everywhere and forever.' P.145

' . . . if you walk out of church contrary to the will and way of God, God does not will that you should do it, but He wills that you should be free to do it.' P. 160

'Everyone in Heaven above is there because he chose to go there. No one wakes up to find himself in Heaven by accident, saying, "I never planned to come here." No! It says that the rich man died and in hell he lifted up his eyes; the poor, good man died and went to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22-23). Each of them went where he belonged. When Judas died he went "to his own place" {Acts 1:25}. And when Lazarus died, he went to his place-places they had chosen. So remember this: Whoever is not on God's side is on the losing side.' P. 161

A.W. Tozer 'A 20th century prophet' they called him even in his own lifetime. For 31 years he was pastor of Southside Alliance Church in Chicago. He died in 1963 and was an author of forty books.

I have read Arthur W. Pink also. There is a lot of truth in his book; one has to sort out the error in his book, "The Sovereignty of God." I like his emphasis on the grace of Jesus that sinners can receive personally.

 

[Frogman]

A.W. Tozer 'A 20th century prophet' they called him even in his own lifetime. For 31 years he was pastor of Southside Alliance Church in Chicago. He died in 1963 and was an author of forty books.

Brother Ray,
I respect you, I really do. However, I must confess to you that I would reject Tozer solely on the 'prophet' thing, I believe all prophecy is written, completed by the Revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle John.

I therefore would reject Tozer on this basis even before I knew he was/is Arminian.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I don't want to act like I am pushing his book. The back of his book says that 'Often quoted by Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham and other great preachers . . .' Whether you recognize him as a prophet or not is irrelavent, but he was a prophet, a man of God. My guess is that he believed in the security of the believer. This should please you.

Dr. J. Steven Harper in speaking of Wesley says, 'Wesley argues in a reasoned way that election (including reprobation) damages God's justice, truth, sincerity, and love. {attributes of God} The result inescapably damages the very sovereignty the Calvinists are so intent on preserving.'

Dr. Harper is more than correct.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

I don't want to act like I am pushing his book. The back of his book says that 'Often quoted by Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham and other great preachers . . .' Whether you recognize him as a prophet or not is irrelavent, but he was a prophet, a man of God. My guess is that he believed in the security of the believer. This should please you.

Dr. J. Steven Harper in speaking of Wesley says, 'Wesley argues in a reasoned way that election (including reprobation) damages God's justice, truth, sincerity, and love. {attributes of God} The result inescapably damages the very sovereignty the Calvinists are so intent on preserving.'

Dr. Harper is more than correct.

I heard Swindoll say once that if anyone desired to join his church they were free to do so, baptism was not necessary...now that's following the commission to a T, his T, designed to increase his following and secure his position. I don't agree with him either.

I know Bro. Stanley and Graham are no different, it is numbers they seek, from this I do not know whether they care for even a regeneration, just call and let them know you have prayed the prayer they teach you to pray and they will send you some literature and (of course after having your address) hound you for ministry donations...after all you are helping to insure the Gospel is proclaimed to all the world...right?

It is sad how men will try to reconcile the depraved mind of man to the sovereign holy God who has created our Universe, simply so they will not be controversial and they can enjoy great followings.

JMO, I guess, but it means something to me.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

I think I know what you mean. There are in fact no more prophets or apostles. I agree with this too. I really don't like to hear a pastor title himself as being Apostle Jones, for example.

In another sense I think of Rev. Billy Graham as a prophet. Some use this term merely placing a stamp of approval on the person as a man of God. Do you think that hurts anything or any body?

 

[Frogman]

In another sense I think of Rev. Billy Graham as a prophet. Some use this term merely placing a stamp of approval on the person as a man of God. Do you think that hurts anything or any body?

If it isn't true, it isn't true. If you think untruths don't hurt that is ok, but I don't believe you think like this.

People read portions of scripture and see the power of God the prophets spoke in and they associate this power with the word, regardless of the doctrine of the man speaking, ever heard of Joseph Smith?

These have there thing, I don't recognize it, so I stay away from it.

Bro. Dallas

 

[npetreley]

Dallas, I really liked this quote from one of the links you posted.

There can be no grace when there is no sovereignty. Deny God’s right to choose whom He will and you deny His right to save whom He will. Deny His right to save whom He will, and you deny that salvation is of grace.

Excellent point.