A question about God's justice

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
It appears that Calvin, Augustine... committed their persecution of Christians while claiming to be Christians.

Please provide your documentation.

I don't why I am even messing with this ridiculous argueent but this is from the website I provided a link to -

"IN HIS OWN CENTURY— aside from Calvin's personal enemies, like Castellio — the execution of Servetus was generally approved. Among these many voices we mention only one, that of Melanchthon who wrote to Calvin: "The Church of Christ will be grateful to you today as well as in the future . . . your government has proceeded in the death of this blasphemer according to all laws." In other words, Calvin objected to the cruel death sentence; the gentle Wittenberger found it just."

So I guess you have to include all of the people responsible for the break from Roman Catholicism in your slander and you end up defending a man who denied the doctrine of the Trinity and justification by faith.

Great company for you to be included with, Yelsew, if you intend to defend Servetus' theology.

[ April 09, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Ken the Spurgeonite ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Faith before the Gospel?

To have it your way, "faith causes hearing and hearing caused the word of God"

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Faith before the Gospel?

Not even the doctrine of regeneration says that. After All the Apostle that wrote the second chapter of Ephesians told us that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

To have it your way, "faith causes hearing and hearing caused the word of God"

The Gospel works by the Spirit...Rom. 1.16; to awaken a faith within the lost, dead and doomed individual. The individual is quickened by the Holy Spirit...John 6.62-64...in there somewhere.

This is the required order; to rely on a dead person to perform in any way a vow before God, is a reliance the Scripture does not speak of.

Thus, we should depart from any hope that man will of himself choose to come to Jesus and give to them the Gospel...per Rom. 1.16; In this way, people are born into the kingdom of God.

God Bless.
Bro. dallas

 

[romanbear]

Hi Ken the spurgeonite;

You still haven't shown in Gods word where it says we lost our freewill and yep here I go again.

What's the matter, can't you simply prove your position?

Eph 2: 1-10 does not prove anything with out your rationalization. You take something that is meant as a figure of speech and make a doctrine out of it.

John 3:16 proves my position and I don't have to explain it
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Notice it clearly say's the "world" is who He loves, not just a bunch of Calvinist. It also says "Whosoever" which means anyone.

I can show you more that back's up my position that you can.

I still haven't seen any where in the Bible where it says only Calvinist will be saved. Or that we have no freewill. No where is atonement limited or only the elect is going to be in Heaven. As far as all this there is no place in the Bible that says we will always be saved no matter how much we sin and not forgive our brothers. The Bible does say that God will strike your name from the book of life if you add or take away from His word. Which is what rationalization is.

[Inappropriate comments deleted. You have been warned before about this and you have refused to follow. This will be the final edit. I will simply delete your posts in their entirety with no warning. If you persist, you will be banned yet again. You have done well for a long time. Do not regress -- Moderator]

[ April 10, 2003, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Yelsew]

Frogman, it was not my post that said

Are people who are spiritually dead unable to respond in faith to the gospel?

here is the quoted original quote

Originally posted by Pastor J.R. Hampton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
God told Adam that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die. He didn't die physically the same day he ate it, but he did die spiritually. And in dying spiritually, he(and his descendants) lost the ability to do anything to save himself from his lost condition.

Ken, this is a good point. You are saying that the ability was given to Adam and lost by Adam because he died spiritually when he sinned. Am I right?

Are people who are spiritually dead unable to respond in faith to the gospel? If so, where does the Bible teach us that? </font>[/QUOTE]The fact is the spiritually dead do not have faith (in Jesus or God) to respond to the Gospel. It is for the purpose of redeeming the "spiritually dead" that the Gospel was given to man. It is by hearing the Gospel and believing that the spiritually dead become the spiritually alive.

Does that happen without the Holy Spirit? NO! but the Holy Spirit does not regenerate the unwilling. If the Holy Spirit regenerated the unwilling, ALL the unwilling would be regenerated. You and I both know that does not happen even though All are invited by the Gospel. No, it is not a matter of predetermination, but is in accordance with the parable of the sower.

 

[KenH]

Frankly, romanbear, I don't care what you think about the truth or me as it is clear to me that you have no interest in engaging in honest debate.

I have clearly explained my position and you refuse to deal with it. You just keep saying that the Bible doesn't teach that and then engage in pejorative language.

By the way, you're a murderer too - your sinful actions nailed Jesus to the cross.

As did mine.

[ April 10, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
but the Holy Spirit does not regenerate the unwilling

After regeneration, we are then willing. If the Holy Spirit did not regenerate us, none of us would ever be willing because the Bible teaches us that before regeneration we are spiritually dead. And one who is dead is incapable of movement.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
but the Holy Spirit does not regenerate the unwilling

After regeneration, we are then willing. If the Holy Spirit did not regenerate us, none of us would ever be willing because the Bible teaches us that before regeneration we are spiritually dead. And one who is dead is incapable of movement. </font>[/QUOTE]But if the Holy Spirit must regenerate first, then Jesus Words are null and void, and you must deal with that, because it is you who does not hold the words of Jesus above all others.

Jesus is the The Son, as in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus over John Calvin or even the Apostles, especially when it comes to salvation.

Furthermore, who was the Holy Spirit given for? If you limit the Holy Spirit to some mysterious "elect" then you under-employ the one living God to a mere portion of His creation. I find great difficulty with that kind of limiting on the part of man toward an eternal almighty, omniscient, omnipresent God, especially when one considers the meaning of "omni-".

 

[Ray Berrian]

Think clearly.

If God makes us willing after He first regenerates a sinner then God has taken away the sinner's responsibility before Almighty God. In this perjurious view, all we have to do is sit around as sinners and wait and see if our name is drawn for everlasting life.

 

[Frogman]

You'll need to think clearer than that.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

How about an honest and responsible answer to post number 1651. If you don't respond I will consider that you don't have any Biblical response as usual.

Respectfully,

Ray

 

[Ray Berrian]

Post deleted for being off topic. You have been warned Ray. Talk about theology. Further violations will result in deletion without comment and eventually further action will be taken.

[ April 10, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brother Dallas,

How about an honest and responsible answer to post number 1651. If you don't respond I will consider that you don't have any Biblical response as usual.

Respectfully,

Ray

Whose post #1651, yours, mine, or who

Uh-oh, was that my last chance

When I do provide a biblical answer no one (or very few) responds, or they disregard the Bible all together.

Hope this changes, if you want to pretend I don't argue from the Bible that is fine with me.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Bible-belted]

Ray,

You may not have noticed, but the posts are not numbered as such. There is a space that gives the number of posts a person has made, but that number changes as you ad posts, and that change is made on EVERY post a person has ever made. So even your first post is "#whatever".

You're going to have to find another way of referencing posts.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-belted,

Thanks for the help. Sometimes on my screen it does not show the date and time of day. I'll try to work with it. Other times it does appear there.

Ray

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible-belted,

Thanks for the help. Sometimes on my screen it does not show the date and time of day. I'll try to work with it. Other times it does appear there.

Ray

Times show up when we go back and edit a post. I don't know if you want to make a practice of editing all your posts just to get a time to show on scree, though some of us as has been mentioned a time or two, make enough typos that we probably should.

 

[Frogman]

Sorry brother Ray,

My post screen shows the time and date of the post, then sometimes as I edit it shows the time and date of edit, sometimes it does not. (edited to see if it works this time).

If you will be kind enough to overlook my earlier response and address the question you wish me to give attention to I will attempt to deal with it.

Sometimes when I post I can see a list of all the posts on the page I am answering below my entry screen, sometimes I cannot. What I really miss is the list at the top of the page showing who is visiting the BB and where they are at. This feature worked on my computer until I got this new one.

If you want me to I will go back and see if I can find the post you are wanting me to deal with?

Thanks.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bible-belted,

Thanks for the help. Sometimes on my screen it does not show the date and time of day. I'll try to work with it. Other times it does appear there.

Ray

Perhaps the WEBMaster can change the color of the date/timeline so that it does appear more clearly in the lower resolution screens.

 

[BobRyan]

Yelsew -
The fact is the spiritually dead do not have faith (in Jesus or God) to respond to the Gospel. It is for the purpose of redeeming the "spiritually dead" that the Gospel was given to man. It is by hearing the Gospel and believing that the spiritually dead become the spiritually alive.

Which is why the Luke 8 scenario of "Rocky Ground" and "Thorny ground" with the "dead in sin - coming to LIFE and growing up - and then dying back" is so "significant" for the Arminian POV.

Ken --
After regeneration, we are then willing. If the Holy Spirit did not regenerate us, none of us would ever be willing because the Bible teaches us that before regeneration we are spiritually dead. And one who is dead is incapable of movement.

Yes that would be another way to argue that Luke 8 scenario is showing someone being "ENABLED" and brought to life - but after some period of time - eventually - dying back again.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Christ said "I will DRAW all Mankind unto Me" John 12:32-

EVEN Calvinists admit that such drawing is "sufficient to ENABLE what total depravity disables".

Is it any wonder that when the Arminian view - accepts that Christ really DOES "DRAW ALL MANKIND to himself" that the problem of ENABLING ALL mankind to choose - is solved??

In Christ,

Bob