A question about Heaven

[agedman]

If we concede there was a “place” that God existed before He created anything, then we must also concede there is something that is eternal other than God.

If there is something (a place) that is also eternal, then God ceases to be unique. In fact, one could conclude there is possibly an infinite number of “places” (alternative universes) that exists, each with its own “God” that is co-eternal with that “place”.

Speculation leads to heresy.

“In the beginning, God”. That is really all we need to know

peace to you

“In the beginning” refers to this creation.

The Scriptures are silent about prior to the beginning of this creation.

An attribute of God is his creativity.

Because He does not turn His attributes on and off, I doubt this existence was the first, but who knows?

Like I posted earlier, the mystery makes eternity all that more interesting.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

This is ultimately touching upon the "I am that I am" verse, which is the closest we will ever come to understanding it in our dimensions here on Earth.

Think of the space of nothing that exists between 2 atoms. Remove the 2 atoms now in your mind. Now remove time from affecting that blank space. Now imagine in that space there are an unlimited number of little specs overlapping each other infinitely with no respect to physical space at all. All of these specs being unlimited dimensions, infinitely unfathomable to us, created for His Glory. That space is what existed prior to God's creation and where God partially "existed" prior to creation.

He chooses to be omnipresent and omnipotent in all areas of time. He is present at all times and at no times. He can enter and leave at His will. An aspect of Him, one of the triune Godhead, became subject to the 3rd Dimension and to time itself temporarily when He entered this world as Christ.

This is beyond a mere time machine where you could traverse backwards or forwards or even sideways "in time".
He can be backwards in time.
He can be forwards in time.
He can be present in time.
He can be in all the above simultaneously while also being in none of the above.

In death, when we are rejoined to our Father, He is somehow able to craft us into beings that also exist outside of time so we can spend eternity with Him. God has somehow created our Soul in such a way that it can apparently exist outside of time and inside of time...that is how an eternal afterlife can exist.

All this, God in His infinite Wisdom, condenses down to "I am that I am".

 

[canadyjd]

“In the beginning” refers to this creation.

The Scriptures are silent about prior to the beginning of this creation.

An attribute of God is his creativity.

Because He does not turn His attributes on and off, I doubt this existence was the first, but who knows?

Like I posted earlier, the mystery makes eternity all that more interesting.

The question was “did God exist in heaven before He created anything?”

Scripture is not silent. John 1, referring to the Word, tells us all things came into being through Him and nothing came into being apart from Him.

Speculation about God creating prior to this creation serve no purpose other than to lead into heresy.

peace to you

 

[Salty]

This is ultimately touching upon the "I am that I am" verse, which is the closest we will ever come to understanding it in our dimensions here on Earth."....

I think I said the same thing in post 14!

 

[agedman]

The question was “did God exist in heaven before He created anything?”

Scripture is not silent. John 1, referring to the Word, tells us all things came into being through Him and nothing came into being apart from Him.

Speculation about God creating prior to this creation serve no purpose other than to lead into heresy.

peace to you

The OP was modified by Salty in #4 and 7, so in my response it was attending more to the speculation of others.

I see no heresy that can come from acknowledging an attribute of God is a creator, and that He does not turn His attributes on or off, therefore, in eternity speculating that He will continue to create is appropriate.

Do you think He has stopped creating?

 

[Salty]

..., so in my response it was attending more to the speculation of others. ...Do you think He has stopped creating?

Exactly
- this thread can not be more than speculation - and so far - some very interesting responses.

 

[Reynolds]

When
and where was God when he created HEaven?

Colossians 1
Where was God? Is He not Omnipresent?
When? I don't know. I don't know if the "Heavens" in Genesis include the third Heaven or just the two.

 

[George Antonios]

I don't understand the thread.
Of course God created heaven, and of course heaven must have been created (i.e. it is not co-eternal with God).
What am I missing here?

 

[Salty]

I don't understand the thread.
Of course God created heaven, and of course heaven must have been created (i.e. it is not co-eternal with God).
What am I missing here?

But When did God create Heaven? and lets add Why?
If God is a Spirit - he does not need a physical location to reside?

(Yes, I know I keep adding new questions)

 

[George Antonios]

But When did God create Heaven? and lets add Why?
If God is a Spirit - he does not need a physical location to reside?

(Yes, I know I keep adding new questions)

Well ok but that's an altogether different question.
Thanks for the clarification though.

 

[atpollard]

I don't understand the thread.
Of course God created heaven, and of course heaven must have been created (i.e. it is not co-eternal with God).
What am I missing here?

The original question was along the lines of "Where was God standing just BEFORE he created Heaven (and started standing in Heaven)?"

What existed before the beginning?

 

[Reynolds]

The original question was along the lines of "Where was God standing just BEFORE he created Heaven (and started standing in Heaven)?"

What existed before the beginning?

This entire thread is weird.

 

[atpollard]

This entire thread is weird.

Meh ... I studied Computer Science at a University where it was taught by the "Mathematics and Philosophy" Department. So once you have argued Zeno's Paradoxes on Motion and Max Black's Infinity Machines and Schrodinger's Cat ... this sort of question fits right in.

It is just a "what if" game.

What did God do before He started dealing with people (and where did He do it)? He had ETERNITY PAST with no heaven or earth (pre Gen 1:1) ... so, what was it like?

 

[Reynolds]

Meh ... I studied Computer Science at a University where it was taught by the "Mathematics and Philosophy" Department. So once you have argued Zeno's Paradoxes on Motion and Max Black's Infinity Machines and Schrodinger's Cat ... this sort of question fits right in.

It is just a "what if" game.

What did God do before He started dealing with people (and where did He do it)? He had ETERNITY PAST with no heaven or earth (pre Gen 1:1) ... so, what was it like?

My Philosophy 258 professor defined philosophy as the "art of discussing worthless matters."

 

[atpollard]

My Philosophy 258 professor defined philosophy as the "art of discussing worthless matters."

It is a hoot when you get to debate “nothing” with dual Math-Philosophy Majors. Sort of Seinfeld meets Sheldon.

 

[Van]

A little background on the Biblical view of "Heaven and Heavens." There are three heavens, the earth's atmosphere, where clouds exist and birds fly, space where the sun, moon and stars shine, and three the abode of God. When you see heaven or heavens in scripture, you must look at the context to discern which are in view. For example, in the phrase, the heavens and the earth, the phrase probably only refers to the physical created heavens, and not the spiritual realm of God. In 2 Kings 2:11, for sure Elijah was taken up to "heaven" but since Jesus tells us no one ascended into "heaven" the first refers to the first heaven with atmosphere (wind) and the second to the abode of God. Where did Elijah end up before being led captive? Abraham's bosom, not the third heaven.

 

[agedman]

A little background on the Biblical view of "Heaven and Heavens." There are three heavens, the earth's atmosphere, where clouds exist and birds fly, space where the sun, moon and stars shine, and three the abode of God. When you see heaven or heavens in scripture, you must look at the context to discern which are in view. For example, in the phrase, the heavens and the earth, the phrase probably only refers to the physical created heavens, and not the spiritual realm of God. In 2 Kings 2:11, for sure Elijah was taken up to "heaven" but since Jesus tells us no one ascended into "heaven" the first refers to the first heaven with atmosphere (wind) and the second to the abode of God. Where did Elijah end up before being led captive? Abraham's bosom, not the third heaven.

Yep, I recon he froze to death in between the hallucinations from lack of sufficient oxygen.

Can you imagine the thrill he must have had as the first man to be in a flying machine. See him holding tight, and as a true Texan would, whooping and laughing all the way. Wonder if he ever thought, “My, I wish I hadn’t dropped my coat!”

 

[Van]

Yep, I recon he froze to death in between the hallucinations from lack of sufficient oxygen.

Can you imagine the thrill he must have had as the first man to be in a flying machine. See him holding tight, and as a true Texan would, whooping and laughing all the way. Wonder if he ever thought, “My, I wish I hadn’t dropped my coat!”

Charlie Chan said it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to say something and remove all doubt...

 

[atpollard]

Charlie Chan said it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to say something and remove all doubt...

Maurice Switzer (1906):

“It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it.”​

Later (1930’s) credited to various famous people in subtle variations:

“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.” ABRAHAM LINCOLN (Yale Book of Quotations, 1931)​

God said it first:

“Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.” (Proverbs 17:28 NIV)

​

(I just thought I’d share what I found … it was interesting.)

 

[agedman]

How dare folks mock my vivid imaginings! .

Speculating on the trip Elijah made makes it real.

Visualizing the fully richness of the journey with garments flowing in the rising chariot, the hands grasping the edges as it lifted off the ground, the realization that God was giving him an experience none before had, and the thrill of completeness in trust drawing and discarding all the worry and cares of this worthless world. All Elisha could do is gawk and receive the coat.

If ever we see a man of prayer it is in Elijah’s communication with God. If ever we see a man of victory, it is Elijah slaying the Baal prophets. If ever we see a victor in despair it is in the cave….