A Question for Calvinist here

[steaver]

Steve... I am in the Biblicist camp....and I have Iconoclast on ignore so I cant very well make comment on his postings...but I will say this, that the man furvently believes what he posts. I can only imagine him sitting in his truck every day listening to his daily dose of "Sermon Audio ".... and that's not a bad thing.

Oh I do not doubt that. He has made some very matter of fact statements about why all Christians do not embrace Calvinism/TULIP and that the "camp" agrees with him. I challenged the claims, and thus far it appears he has none on his side on this OP topic, well, except for Willis maybe, but Icon appears to be his icon for all things Calvinistic.

 

[steaver]

So far we have one Calvinist (AA) speaking out against your comments and proof texting in this OP Icon, and one agreeing with them (Willis). I know there are a whole bunch more reading, but for some reason they are afraid to chime in, not sure if the silence means agreement or disagreement yet. Or maybe they just aren't sure, no that can't be, they are Calvinist afterall :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

So far we have one Calvinist (AA) speaking out against your comments and proof texting in this OP Icon, and one agreeing with them (Willis). I know there are a whole bunch more reading, but for some reason they are afraid to chime in, not sure if the silence means agreement or disagreement yet. Or maybe they just aren't sure, no that can't be, they are Calvinist afterall :smilewinkgrin:

AA offered a good post and response offering his view on how I express my view. He has described how he thinks some of what I say is a stretch and he is not comfortable with my explanation...I do not see where he has "spoken out" against what i say. The issue being discussed has some nuance.
I am not a spokesmen for all persons. If I ask AA some questions we will agree on many things...the two issues are
Does God reveal truth to a believer?

Are what is called Calvinism the truths revealed by God?

 

[DHK]

AA offered a good post and response offering his view on how I express my view. He has described how he thinks some of what I say is a stretch and he is not comfortable with my explanation...I do not see where he has "spoken out" against what i say. The issue being discussed has some nuance.
I am not a spokesmen for all persons. If I ask AA some questions we will agree on many things...the two issues are
Does God reveal truth to a believer?

No. All truth is revealed in God's Word. He illumines our heart to the truth that is already revealed in the Word of God. There is no other truth apart from God's Word. That is called illumination, not revelation.

Are what is called Calvinism the truths revealed by God?

No. As posted in another thread, look up Calvin's comments on John 3:16.
Calvin himself does not believe in a limited atonement. He believes that Christ died for all. That his death, his blood was sufficient for the world, the entire world. But faith is granted only to those who would believe.

I wouldn't word the last statement that way, but there is basic agreement. IOW Christ died for the world, but his atonement is efficacious only to those that believe.
Calvinists don't believe Calvin. How can they rightly be called Calvinists. Calvin himself did not believe TULIP! There is so much division within this camp it cannot be revealed by God. Calvinists contradict one another. This is a man-made system; not a God-given system.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Had to look it up from several authors, yep, Calvinist do not agree with their leader.

 

[Rippon]

Calvin Addressed This To Tilemann Heshusius

Calvin himself does not believe in a limited atonement. He believes that Christ died for all. That his death, his blood was sufficient for the world, the entire world.

"I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them, and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sin." [I emboldened]

 

[Iconoclast]

No. All truth is revealed in God's Word. He illumines our heart to the truth that is already revealed in the Word of God. There is no other truth apart from God's Word. That is called illumination, not revelation.

This is correct DHK... This is what I meant when I said God reveals His truth to men...I should be more careful with my wording.

God reveals His truth to men...there is no new revelation.It was given to the Apostles put in the word...which Is then illuminated to Christians.
Glad to see you agree with me about Divine enablement:thumbs:

the rest of your post drifted into error however...:type:

but since you love Calvin in Jn 3..here you go;

Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally
to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all.

For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they
whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

John calvin on jn8:47

47. He who is of God. As he has a full right to take this for granted, that he is the ambassador of the heavenly Father, and that he discharges faithfully the office which has been committed to him, he kindles into greater indignation against them; for their impiety was no longer concealed, since they were so obstinate in rejecting the word of God. He had showed that
they could not bring forward any thing which he had not taught as from the mouth of God. He concludes, therefore, that they have nothing in common with God, for they do not hear the words of God; and,
without saying any thing about himself, he charges them with being at war with God. Besides, we are taught by this passage, that there is not a more evident sign of a reprobate mind, than when one cannot endure the doctrine of Christ, even though, in other respects, it shone with angelic sanctity; as, on the contrary, if we embrace that doctrine cheerfully, we have what may be called a visible seal of our election. For he who has the
word enjoys God himself; but he who rejects it excludes himself from
righteousness and life. Wherefore, there is nothing which we ought to fear so much as to fall under that dreadful sentence.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvin on 1 cor2;
10. But God hath revealed them to us. Having shut up all mankind in blindness, and having taken away from the human intellect the power of attaining to a knowledge of God by its own resources, he now shows in what way believers are exempted from this blindness, — by the Lord’s honoring them with a special illumination of the Spirit


Hence the greater the bluntness of the human intellect for understanding the mysteries of
God, and the greater the uncertainty under which it labors, so much the surer is our faith, which rests for its support on the revelation of God’s Spirit.

This is added for the consolation of the pious, that they may rest more securely in the revelation which they have
from the Spirit of God, as though he had said. “Let it suffice us to have the Spirit of God as a witness, for there is nothing in God that is too profound for him to reach.” For such is the import here of the word searcheth. By the deep things you must understand — not secret judgments, which we are forbidden to search into, but the entire doctrine of salvation, which would have been to no purpose set before us in the Scriptures, were it not that God elevates our minds to it by his Spirit.

11. For what man knoweth? Two different things he intends to teach here: first, that the doctrine of the Gospel cannot be understood otherwise than by the testimony of the Holy Spirit;

Here, however, the Apostle declares in general terms, that the elect have the Spirit given them, by whose
testimony they are assured that they have been adopted to the hope of eternal salvation. Undoubtedly, if they would maintain their doctrine, they must of necessity either take away the Spirit of God from the elect, or make even the Spirit himself subject to uncertainty. Both of these things are openly at variance with Paul’s doctrine.

That we may know the things that are given us by Christ. The word know is made use of to express more fully the assurance of confidence. Let us observe, however, that it is not acquired in a natural way, and is not
attained by the mental capacity, but depends entirely on the revelation of the Spirit.[

 

[Iconoclast]

14. But the animal man. f125 By the animal man he does not mean (as is commonly thought) the man that is given up to gross lusts, or, as they say, to his own sensuality, but any man that is endowed with nothing more than the faculties f126 of nature. f127 This appears from the corresponding term, for he draws a comparison between the animal man and the spiritual.
As the latter denotes the man whose understanding is regulated by the illumination of the Spirit of God, there can be no doubt that the former denotes the man that is left in a purely natural condition, as they speak.
For the soul f128 belongs to nature, but the Spirit is of supernatural communication

For they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them. “The doctrine of the gospel,” says he, “is insipid f130 in the view of all that are wise merely in the view of man. But whence comes this? It is from their own blindness.

For he teaches, that it is not owing simply to the obstinacy of the human will, but to the impotency, also, of the understanding, that man does not attain to the things of the Spirit. Had he said that men are not willing to be wise, that indeed would have been true, but he states farther that they are not able.
Hence we infer, that faith is not in one’s own power, but is divinely conferred. Because they are spiritually discerned. That is, the Spirit of God, from whom the doctrine of the gospel comes, is its only true interpreter, to open it up to us. Hence in judging of it, men’s minds must of necessity be in blindness until they are enlightened by the Spirit of God. Hence infer, that all mankind are by nature destitute of the Spirit of God: otherwise the argument would be inconclusive. It is from the Spirit of God, it is true, that we have that feeble spark of reason which we all enjoy; but at present we are speaking of that special discovery of heavenly wisdom which God vouchsafes to his sons alone. Hence the more insufferable the
ignorance of those who imagine that the gospel is offered to mankind in common in such a way that all indiscriminately are free to embrace salvation by faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

"I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them, and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sin." [I emboldened]

:thumbs: Seeing DHK has a love for all things Calvin ,I also offered Him some pertaining to this thread:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Steaver,

Could you comment on this?
Did jesus say something was given to them and not others?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven

Does this passage say that this knowledge was revealed to Peter from heaven?

Here is another one Steaver...your friend DHK can help you,,or maybe plain and simple...

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Does Jesus teach that the Father has hidden these things from one group and yet revealed them unto another group?

See the word...revealed....as in Divinely enabled???

let me know how I have "missed this"...

 

[DHK]

Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally
to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all[/B].

For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they
whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith.

I am not a Calvinist. But I point out the inconsistencies of those who follow this man instead of the scriptures.
As you just posted, he believes that "Life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ."
Icon, if you are honest with yourself, you don't believe that.
Yes, he clarifies himself. Even as an Arminian would--"still faith is not common to all," only we would state it another way. He still states that salvation is for all. It is universal. It is unlimited in its scope.

I am not going to answer the rest of your posts on Calvin. That is not what this thread is for.

 

[Iconoclast]

[DHK.

As you just posted, he believes that "Life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ." Icon, if you are honest with yourself, you don't believe that.

sure I do...all cals do

 

[DHK]

[DHK.


sure I do...all cals do

Yeah, sure..

Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish.

John Calvin on John 3:16
Clear enough. Is this what you believe?

 

[convicted1]

I am not a Calvinist.

That's quite obvious. :smilewinkgrin:

But I point out the inconsistencies of those who follow this man instead of the scriptures.

Strawman. None follow John Calvin the man. Just because we agree with a lot of his doctrine(s)...mainly the five points ascribed to him later on...does not mean we follow him. The only inconsistencies are the thoughts in your head as what you see is really windmills, Don Quixote...

As you just posted, he believes that "Life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ."

Look, God so loved the world. The world...kosmos...refers to the orb, the planet earth, and not every single human that was ever conceived. Jesus had distain for the pharisees and saducees...He told them His word had no place in them. Why? Because they were not of His sheep. They were goats and boasted they knew God. Jesus stated otherwise. I'll side with Christ. :thumbs:

Icon, if you are honest with yourself, you don't believe that.

He is an honest man, and yes he believes that. You are seeing windmills still, Mr. Quixote...

Yes, he clarifies himself. Even as an Arminian would--"still faith is not common to all," only we would state it another way. He still states that salvation is for all. It is universal. It is unlimited in its scope.

He is very consistent in his theology...Mr. Calvin that is. It is you that fails to grasp his very clear teachings concerning the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You state it was for everyone, the bible states otherwise. I'll side with the bible. :thumbs:

I am not going to answer the rest of your posts on Calvin. That is not what this thread is for.

Why did you even respond to begin with if you weren't going to answer the rest of his post?

 

[Rippon]

As you just posted, he believes that "Life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ."
Icon, if you are honest with yourself, you don't believe that.

What Calvinist would deny that life, (eternal life,) is promised universally to all who believe in Christ?

We do believe, contrary to your theory, that belief and repentance are given to those who are His elect ones. No one is capable of manufacturing faith. It has to be God-given. I know that blessed biblical truth goes against your grain.

 

[Rippon]

I am not a Calvinist. But I point out the inconsistencies of those who follow this man instead of the scriptures.

And that, Mr. DHK, is a categorical falsehood you love to perpetuate.

 

[PreachTony]

Look, God so loved the world. The world...kosmos...refers to the orb, the planet earth, and not every single human that was ever conceived. Jesus had distain for the pharisees and saducees...He told them His word had no place in them. Why? Because they were not of His sheep. They were goats and boasted they knew God. Jesus stated otherwise. I'll side with Christ.

Just curious, C1, but I'm trying to comprehend this statement. The way I've read the scriptures, Jesus might have a disdain for the actions of people, but He still loved them. He still desired them to repent. If He displayed such disdain for the Pharisees, then how did Nicodemus come to have such a relationship with Jesus that he came by night to hear the Lord's words, that he defended Jesus before the Pharisees, and that he came with spices for anointing the body of Christ? How was Saul/Paul a "chosen vessel," as he admits publicly to being a Pharisee?

I really don't understand how Calvinists can see God limiting His love to only a select few when I don't see that in scripture. I see scriptures stating that Christ died for all men, or for the whole world. Why would God refer only to the physical planet earth as being what He loved when the scripture plainly reveals that the earth is saved to a melting with a fervent heat?

 

[steaver]

AA offered a good post and response offering his view on how I express my view. He has described how he thinks some of what I say is a stretch and he is not comfortable with my explanation...I do not see where he has "spoken out" against what i say. The issue being discussed has some nuance.
I am not a spokesmen for all persons. If I ask AA some questions we will agree on many things...the two issues are
Does God reveal truth to a believer?

Are what is called Calvinism the truths revealed by God?

Are you sure you read what he said????

Misrepresenting?

I might think that Icon gets it wrong--that he is mistaken--but "misrepresenting" is far too harsh of a word.

Icon is sharing his understanding which, IMO, is flawed for a number of reasons. However, there is a very low likelihood that he's intentionally seeking to lead people away from the truth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by steaver
Icon says that the Calvinist camp agree with his comments and his scripture proof text which he gives for such comments. I have yet to see one other Calvinist chime in and declare Icon correct or incorrect. The closest we have to an agreement is Willis, but he agrees with everything Icon says and doesn't give it any consideration...if Icon says it is so, then it is Divine Truth.

Some, I'm sure, do agree with him. I'm one who does not.


The Archangel

If I ask AA some questions we will agree on many things...the two issues are
Does God reveal truth to a believer?

Are what is called Calvinism the truths revealed by God?

No, these are not the questions in the OP. The OP is specific towards a comment DHK made and an answer you gave to that comment.

Brother Icon declares that one cannot become a Calvinist unless God allows them to believe the doctrine.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
DHK asked in one of these threads...what do you want me to do...BECOME A CALVINIST???? even this betrays a view that is not clear on how truth is opened up to someone.
A person does not become a Calvinist, and more than a person one day just becomes a Christian. It takes a work of Divine enablement.

....he bases this belief on Matt 13. You can see his argument here....... http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...57#post2173157

My question is, is this what all Calvinist believe? Please answer pertaining directly to the OP, in other words, please do not tweek or rewrite the OP and then answer something different.

Brother Icon says his position is within the camp of Calvinism.