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A Question for Calvinist here

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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I'm sorry, what do you mean by "Forced Faith?"
It is just a term I use. I put a challenge to Icon which he won't answer.
He makes the statement, and numerous times, that God gives faith to believe. I call that the Calvinist myth.
If that is true then demonstrate if from Scripture. Over a long period of time Icon has never been able to do that.

I will lay it out again.
God gives believers faith.
Faith is listed in 1Cor.12 as one of the spiritual gifts (though most here I believe are cessationists). Nevertheless it was a spiritual gift given to believers only.

Faith is listed in Gal.5 as a fruit of the Spirit. Again it is the fruit of the Spirit.

God does not give his spiritual gifts nor the fruit of the Spirit to unregenerate people. That is a perpetuated Calvinist myth. Demonstrate it with Scripture. They can't. There will no scripture that will be forth coming unless it is applicable to Christians.

One cannot be regenerated unless he hears the Word of God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. It is not God that forces faith upon a person in order that he might believe. The faith comes from accepting the Word of God as true. He must accept the truth of the Gospel.
In fact the Bible distinctly says in 1Pet.1:23 that we are born again by the Word of God.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You are either deceived or purposefully deceiving.
You simply ignore evidence. I post evidence from Spurgeon and you remain unconvinced. That is remaining deliberately ignorant. Do not attack me when you are in a state of unbelief.
You are confuted at every turn.
I have demonstrated that you are wrong. Why are you attacking me. Read what Spurgeon preached and accept it.
What an example you set as a moderator! You are bearing false witness and you very well know it.
Get off the moderator kick. I am not a moderator in this forum and you know it. I am not bearing false witness. I am giving evidence that you refuse to believe. You will be held accountable for your unbelief and personal attacks.
No Calvinist believes in "forced-faith" so why do you make things up out of whole cloth and attribute it to Calvinists?
I have explained that term in post #141. Please read it.
 

plain_n_simple

Active Member
Let us go at once to our text—"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Now, there are four things very plain from our text, namely, that first, there is a "water of life;" that secondly, the invitation is very wide—"Whosoever will;" that thirdly, the path is clear, for it says, "Whoever will, let him come;" and then again, that, fourthly, the only rule that is prescribed is—let him take it "freely." That is the only price demanded, and the only condition, which indeed is not a condition, but a death-blow to all conditions. "Let him come and take the water of life freely."-Spurgeon
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
At least one good thing has come of it, DHKs incapacity to be truthful was laid bare.

What more do you expect from him? That's his standard MO.

As to the OP. I am a relatively recent comer to the reformed corner,
You admit you are a newcomer here. You haven't participated in the thread. It is now quite a few pages long. And you have the audacity to attack me as you have without finding out if what I said it true or not. What have I said that is not true. Back up your accusations with exact quotes. Gossip and personal attacks are also against the rules.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Calvinists have soul-winning hearts. What you said that we don't is just plain stoopid...not ignorant...ignorance can be fixed...stoopidity can't. No DOGer worth his weight in marshmallows is anti-Great Commissional. Another categorigally stoopid statement you've made.

You are just un-teachable, and are in the thralls of 'Winmanism'....
Not so.
Here is a quote from Dave Hunt found in his book "What Love is This," on page 30. I happen to agree with it.
[FONT=&quot]To believe that those who will be saved have been predestined to salvation by God’s decree, that no others can be saved, and that the elect must be regenerated by God’s sovereign act without the gospel or any persuasion by any preacher, or by any faith in God on their part, could hardly provide motivation for earnestly preaching the gospel. No matter how the Calvinist tries to argue to the contrary, such a belief can only lessen the zeal a reasonable person might otherwise have, to reach the lost with the gospel of God’s grace in Christ.
[/FONT]
 

RLBosley

Active Member
You admit you are a newcomer here. You haven't participated in the thread. It is now quite a few pages long. And you have the audacity to attack me as you have without finding out if what I said it true or not. What have I said that is not true. Back up your accusations with exact quotes. Gossip and personal attacks are also against the rules.

Can you read? I said in my post that I am a relative new comer to the reformed corner, meaning reformed theology. I have been around here on this forum off and on for a while now. Also, just because I have only now posted does not mean I haven't been reading the thread. I said what I did because I am absolutely sickened by your dishonesty, exemplified by your dishonest handing of Spurgeon in this thread. Perhaps I spoke out of turn as I was not engaged in the conversation.
 
Not so.
Here is a quote from Dave Hunt found in his book "What Love is This," on page 30. I happen to agree with it.


Look, none of us, or you for that matter, knows who the sheep are. They look just like the goats. However, the gospel being preached is what distinguishes them from each other. The goats don't want any part of it. The sheep, in God's timing, hear the gospel and come to Him...
 
I wrote a blog post about Revelation 22:17 a while back...

Revelation 22:17. Explaining the “whosoever”

First off, my name is Willis Fletcher, Jr., and I am an ordained Elder in the Indian Bottom Association of Old Regular Baptists, my home church being Little Martha. Now that the introduction is out of the way, I will do my best, by the help of the good Lord, to explain what Rev. 22:17 is saying. Context is the thing that must rule at all times in regards to biblical exegesis. So, let’s examine the verse that is in question:



Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



There is always something that is necessary in reagrds to who will come, and why they come. Too many want to look at the last sentence that states, “And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely” and think it means any and all, without exception. That isn’t what is being said in the least. Let’s look at it like this. Whenever you have been somewhere and you have drank enough water to raise the Titanic, you will have no desire for another drink of water, even if someone offers you a cold glass of ice water. In other words, you won’t have a desire for a drink of water unless you are thirsty. That is why this verse isn’t saying that any and all can come and get a drink of that living water, but only those who are “athirst, thirsty, desirious of it”, etc. Before anyone desires to take a drink of that living water, that thirst must be set up by God Almighty.



Now, let’s take a look at another verse:



Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Those who thirst and hunger after righteouness are already blessed, as this verse states. God comes to them and shows them their lost condition and their need of Him, and causes a thirst to be set up in their life. This is what is generally called “regeneration by the Spirit”, in that we are quickened(made alive) to hear the words of God. Then it leads us through a trail of repentance, with a Godly sorrow being set up in one’s life, and all the way through to salvation. Those who never thirst for righteousness will never come to take the water of life freely. They have no desire for it, being not one of God’s sheep, elect, roayl preisthood, peculiar people, chosen generation, etc.



So Revealtion 22:17 isn’t making an offer to any and all without exception, but rather, an invitation to those who He chose from before the foundation of this world. He will cause them to become thirsty, to desire Him, to come to Him, etc.
 
Another blog post I wrote...


Matthew 11:28-30 and coming to Christ.

I have heard this passage preached many times, and I have preached it that way, too, before my theological shift, and used it as a call to all, to come to Christ to be saved. But is this call for any and all, or is it for a particular set of people? Jesus proclaims this invitation:

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.



As I have written before, there is always a means, there is always a context, to any passage in the bible, and there is no exception here. Let’s take a look at verse 28:



28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Now, the “all” here in verse 28, is it for “all mankind” or for “all those that are heavy ladened”? The word “all” rarely means “all mankind without exception” in the bible. In fact, here are a few examples to support my claim here:



Luke 2

1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

So, was Caeser Augustus taxing the whole world, all mankind without exception, or just those under his authority?

John 12:18-20

18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.

19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

So, was the world, all mankind without exception gone after Jesus, or just those who were around Him at that time?

Matthew 21:24-26

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.



So, did all mankind without excpetion believe John the Baptist was a Prophet, or just those surrounding the Pharisees?



Once you realize that “world” and “all” rarely means encompassing the earth, in that it doesn’t mean all mankind without exception, you can get a better understanding of the words “all” and world”. Now back to the passabe in Matthew 11.



Jesus is inviting all those who are wearied and heavy ladened to come to Him for rest. Sinners nowadays aren’t wearied and heavy ladened with their sins, but rather, enjoy them. I was that way one time, until God came in and changed my desires, and drew me to Himself. He changed my “want to” from serving the creature(myself), to serving the Creator(Him). It was then, that I realized what my sin had done to me, and a Godly sorrow set up in my life. I then began to seek after Him for His grace, love, and mercy. My sin had me burdened down, and I wanted to get that load off of me. God drew me all the way to the feet of Jesus, and He took that burden of sin off of me(Satan’s yoke of sin), and place His yoke upon me.

Now, to show you point blank that the invitation is for those who are wearied and heavy laden, only for those who God gave to the Son from before the foundation of the world, let’s delve a little deeper.



John 6:37-45

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jesus stated in verse 37 that all the Father has given me SHALL come unto Me, and none of them will I cast out. He didn’t say I will draw “all the world without exception”, but those who the Father gave Him. And they SHALL come; not that He would draw them and they could come if they chose to. They SHALL come to Jesus.



In verse 44, Jesus stated that no man could come to Him unless His Father which sent Him, would draw him. And He even went on to say He would raise them up at the last day. So if Jesus did, in fact, die for all, draw all, and raise all, you run right into universalism. Then you can read in John 10 where Jesus stated He was the good Shepherd and that the good Shepherd would give His life for His sheep. Then in John 17, He stated that He didn’t pray for the world(the goats), but for those who God have given Him, and not for them only, but those who would believe in their words.



So the inviation is a world wide invitation, but not for any and all without exception, but a world wide invitation to those who were given to the Lamb of God by God before the foundation of the world.
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You simply ignore evidence. I post evidence from Spurgeon and you remain unconvinced.
It is self-evident that you are deliberately twisting things.
Do not attack me when you are in a state of unbelief.
Do not use that kind of language.
I have demonstrated that you are wrong.
Au contrare.

Read what Spurgeon preached and accept it.
I do accept what he preached --you are as anti-Spurgeon as they come.
I am not bearing false witness.
It is bearing false witness for you to claim that you are not bearing false witness! ;-)
I am giving evidence that you refuse to believe.
Turning things on their head, as is your usual style is not the way for you to go.
You will be held accountable for your unbelief.
You are not to use that kind of language Mr. Mod.

You have skewed what Spurgeon stood for. You are a revisionist;it is plain to see. But you have done the same kind of twisting with many others from Christian history --it is no surprise. But it is shameful for a mod on a Christian forum to be engaged in your modification of the facts. (Pun intended).
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not so.
Here is a quote from Dave Hunt found in his book "What Love is This," on page 30. I happen to agree with it.
To use Dave Hunt as a source to support your lost cause is as bad as using David Cloud. I knew Dave Hunt. He was a personable Christian man who had many commenable qualities; but when it came to things pertaining to Calvinism he was in deep error.

He misrepresented Calvinism and you have perpetuated his practice.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
RLBosley.

At least one good thing has come of it, DHKs incapacity to be truthful was laid bare.
What more do you expect from him? That's his standard MO.

:thumbsup:

.
I do not know if I fully agree with Icon's interpretation of illumination regarding the doctrines of grace, though I think it would be logical. If, as according to scripture, we require God to enlighten our minds and open our hearts to receive the gospel because of our fallenness, then it would seem to follow that any correct theology would require similar illumination
.

Hello RLB,

In part here is what I believe on it....

1]mankind fallen in Adam is cut off from the true knowledge of the living God,
and is totally dependent on God ...revealing himself.

2] the means used are the word and Spirit..Given by God through The apostles and prophets...Christ Jesus Himself as the full final revelation.

3] believers alone are given and indwelt by the Spirit of God to be Divinely enabled to welcome the word of God...by Divine Illumination.

4] believers are commanded to grow in grace and knowledge, to pursue holiness, and to serve God in the midst of this fallen world.

5 ]Disobedience to known commands can hinder progress in this growth in grace.

6]Scoffing and mocking at revealed truth halts this growth in grace.

7] A proud spirit severely limits such growth as God resists the proud

8] The apostles were promised to be guided into ALL truth. We do not have that same promise directly

9]False teaching entertained retards progress in growth.

10] Some persons have diminished mental capacity which limits growth, although God gives to each of us what we need in our life.

11] Even those who are trusted guides are not immune from any and all hindrances mentioned here.

12] God for His sovereign purposes reveals or conceals truth:wavey:
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No "forced-faith," no anything but simply "come."
Your self-penned "forced-faith" idea that you pin on Calvinists is absurd.

Listen to some words of Charles H.Spurgeon, in his sermon Human Inability. It was preached on 3/7/1858. His text was John 6:44. Here is an extract.

"How, then, does the Spirit draw him? Why, by making him willing. It is true He does not use 'moral suasion'; He knows a nearer method of reaching the heart, and He knows how, by some mysterious operation, to turn the will in an opposite direction, so that, as Ralph Erskine paradoxically puts it, the man is saved 'with full consent against his will'; that is, against his old will he is saved. But he is saved with full consent, for he is made willing in the day of God's power. Do not imagine that any man will go to Heaven kicking and struggling all the way against the hand that draws him."
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
plain_n_simple

So the Calvin preacher speaks to the lost, knowing that some were not meant to hear or accept the Gospel.

They preach knowing this;
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
One or two of the unelected accept the call.
No one accepts anything. Non elect will never seek God savingly.
If you "know" who are non elect...how do you know This?
If you can save any ...non elect person...go for it, but explain biblically how anyone not elected by God gets saved:laugh:

An exercise in futility at best.
This makes no sense.
The Calvinist cannot have a heart for the lost believing the deck is stacked.

You do not even know what Calvinism is...so how can you make such a statement. Show you know what it really is with some biblical support, then offer your biblical critique.... You can post what you want for sure, but what you are posting is void of content.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK

let he help you DHK..you seem puzzled....
You admit you are a newcomer here.

You already misread his post. have enough respect for a poster to read what he posted correctly. No wonder you have everything wrong:thumbs:

You haven't participated in the thread. It is now quite a few pages long. And you have the audacity to attack me as you have without finding out if what I said it true or not.

All he had to do was read and observe your posts. He can read....he said it was nauseating to him to read what you posted. No need to bite his head off DHK.....His post shows he reads with high reading comprehension and already sees the baseless charges you bring forth...it made him sick:thumbs:


What have I said that is not true.

About 90% of what you posted:laugh: that's what made him sick:wavey:

Back up your accusations with exact quotes. Gossip and personal attacks are also against the rules.

maybe he see's that you do not do that so he might not be sure what you are asking...or you are asking him to do what you do not do.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your self-penned "forced-faith" idea that you pin on Calvinists is absurd.

Listen to some words of Charles H.Spurgeon, in his sermon Human Inability. It was preached on 3/7/1858. His text was John 6:44. Here is an extract.

"How, then, does the Spirit draw him? Why, by making him willing. It is true He does not use 'moral suasion'; He knows a nearer method of reaching the heart, and He knows how, by some mysterious operation, to turn the will in an opposite direction, so that, as Ralph Erskine paradoxically puts it, the man is saved 'with full consent against his will'; that is, against his old will he is saved. But he is saved with full consent, for he is made willing in the day of God's power. Do not imagine that any man will go to Heaven kicking and struggling all the way against the hand that draws him."

Yes...he is wrong at every turn. That is something we can say positive about DHK's latest postings...he has a consistent way about him...consistently wrong, consistently mis representing, consistently bearing false witness.

I am enjoying reading all the fine quotes demonstrating truth though:wavey:
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK

It is just a term I use. I put a challenge to Icon which he won't answer.
I answered this over and over...you are unable to welcome the answer.
He makes the statement, and numerous times, that God gives faith to believe.
yes the bible speaks of this as salvation
I call that the Calvinist myth.

yes..sadly that is why you lack understanding.
If that is true then demonstrate if from Scripture.

Jn 3, EPH 2


Over a long period of time Icon has never been able to do that.

I notice you have no picture , no Avatar.....Could I suggest.....Pinnochio:laugh:
maybe read the book also.
 
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