A question for calvinists

[TCGreek]

I find it incredible that those who are non-calvinists are affirming the same thing that they wish to deny Calvinists.

Tell me, Are we devoid of sound reasoning? Absolutely not! Then why?

 

[webdog]

I find it incredible that those who are non-calvinists are affirming the same thing that they wish to deny Calvinists.

Tell me, Are we devoid of sound reasoning? Absolutely not! Then why?

The problem lies in your camp believing God's will is 100% decretive / declarative. It makes no sense for a determinist to pray, but someone who believes that God does allow certain circumstances to take place has a real respect for asking God to, in fact, be a determinist in situations we cannot control. We are crying out to God realizing He is God and we are not.

 

[TCGreek]

The problem lies in your camp believing God's will is 100% decretive / declarative. It makes no sense for a determinist to pray, but someone who believes that God does allow certain circumstances to take place has a real respect for asking God to, in fact, be a determinist in situations we cannot control. We are crying out to God realizing He is God and we are not.

Webdog, I'm not a determinist. Scripture simply will not allow me to be one.

A determinist believes that we are all robots. I know of no well-bred Calvinist who believes that.

Do you know of any?

 

[Allan]

I find it incredible that those who are non-calvinists are affirming the same thing that they wish to deny Calvinists.

Tell me, Are we devoid of sound reasoning? Absolutely not! Then why?

If I may?

Editted : Modified in accordance to TCG actual statement.
I don't think they are denying the Calvinist this but that they themselves wished God was more like that to a point.

Would any one of them every ask God to force Himself upon them to save them? (EDITTED IN - which is the presumption of what many understand about Calvinism) While on one side of us we might say 'I wished' ... It is the manner of prayer they are refering to.

IOW - It is much like Jesus prayer when they pray, not my will but thine.
Not as I 'wish' it were but as you have chosen it to be. Editted in as well - Kinda like I 'wish' you would force yourself upon them but I know better Lord.
Remember, Calvinists pray much like their Non-Cal brethren as much as their Non-Cal brethren pray like they do.

Take praying for ones salvation for example, they do not say Lord if you do not save my child that is blessed news. But they will ask the Father to save them and their child(ren) would receive Him as their lord and saviour.

They are not (or should not) be content in telling a person about Jesus just once and stating "if they didn't receive him then they must be ordained to hell". I don't know personally of any Calvinist like that, yet they will strive as much as we non-cals to save the world and reach all of the elect. They will petition God for as many as He has chosen and if possible even some more if He will.

 

[TCGreek]

If I may?

They aren't saying they 'wish they were Calvinists' but that they would pray as if God would be as the Calvinistic view declares.

Would any one of them every ask God to force Himself upon them to save them? While on one side of us we might say 'I wished' ... It is the manner of prayer they are refering to.

IOW - It is much like Jesus prayer when they pray, not my will but thine.
Not as I 'wish' it were but as you have chosen it to be.

Remember, Calvinists pray much like their Non-Cal brethren as much as their Non-Cal brethren pray like they do.

Take praying for ones salvation for example, they do not say Lord if you do not save my child that is blessed news. But they will ask the Father to save them and their child(ren) would receive Him as their lord and saviour.

They are not (or should not) be content in telling a person about Jesus just once and stating "if they didn't receive him then they must be ordained to hell". I don't know personally of any Calvinist like that, yet they will strive as much as we non-cals to save the world and reach all of the elect. They will petition God for as many as He has chosen and if possible even some more if He will.

Allan, this is a fair post, but I wish you hadn't taken off on my use of the word "wish." I believe you may have misunderstood my use of it.

But I think you gave what appears to be a fair representation.

 

[Allan]

Allan, this is a fair post, but I wish you hadn't taken off on my use of the word "wish." I believe you may have misunderstood my use of it.

But I think you gave what appears to be a fair representation.

Thank you, I editted somethings that might have appeared to be an incorrect way to say it regarding the Calvinistic view (like - God forcing them)

I went back and modified that line to reflect more what your statement was in relation to.

 

[nunatak]

I just read what Bonhoffer wrote about prayer in Cost of discipleship. I know he was a Lutheran. Was he also Calvinist?

 

[TCGreek]

Thank you, I editted somethings that might have appeared to be an incorrect way to say it regarding the Calvinistic view (like - God forcing them)

Editted - I see what you are saying now. It was in general I was speaking and necessarily removing your 'wish' aspect from it. I went back and modified that line to reflect more what your statement was in relation to.

Thank you, Allan. :thumbs: I just wanted you to relate my use of "wish" in the way I used it.

And the debate continues...

 

[Brother Bob]

Either God is Omniscience or He is not. If He is outside of time and sees all, the beginning from the end, then that does not take away from our desire to ask in faith believing, or His granting according to His wishes in accordance with our asking. Because He knows of our "asking", and His "granting", changes nothing as far as I can see.

Act 10:4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Either God is Omniscience or He is not. If He is outside of time and sees all, the beginning from the end, then that does not take away from our desire to ask in faith believing, or His granting according to His wishes in accordance with our asking. Because He knows of our "asking", and His "granting", changes nothing as far as I can see.

Act 10:4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

BBob,

BBob, I know that you're not a Calvinist, but what you've said is what I would have said as well.

The OP appears then to be an intentional caricature.

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob, I know that you're not a Calvinist, but what you've said is what I would have said as well.

The OP appears then to be an intentional caricature.

Well TC;
I don't think this statement is Calvinist or Non-Calvinist. Because God can see all at once, is how I look at the predestination, election, choice, believing. I mean, I doubt if anyone on here would say that God does not know how we shall all die.


BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Well TC;
I don't think this statement is Calvinist or Non-Calvinist. Because God can see all at once, is how I look at the predestination, election, choice, believing. I mean, I doubt if anyone on here would say that God does not know how we shall all die.


BBob,

BBob, it seems like this view of God's omniscience and foreknowledge means one thing for non-calvinists and quite another for calvinists.

Well, I got that from several of the posts above. I stand to be corrected.

 

[Allan]

BBob, it seems like this view of God's omniscience and foreknowledge means one thing for non-calvinists and quite another for calvinists.

Well, I got that from several of the posts above. I stand to be corrected.

I don't think our view of Gods omniscience is any different than that of our Calvinist brethren. Remember the Thread by TinyTim on Theology? We were all in agreement.

It is the view of foreknowledge where the two groups show their distinction of understanding. Remember also in Tiny's thread that was what were agreeing our disagreements would show itself in the most as we drew closer to it.

(funny we never got to that part of the discussion :laugh: )

 

[TCGreek]

I don't think our view of Gods omniscience is any different than that of our Calvinist brethren. Remember the Thread by TinyTim on Theology? We were all in agreement.

It is the view of foreknowledge where the two groups show their distinction of understanding. Remember also in Tiny's thread that was what were agreeing our disagreements would show itself in the most as we drew closer to it.

(funny we never got to that part of the discussion :laugh: )

Allan, read post # 8.

God's omniscience and foreknowledge are so closely linked that a division only seems academic.

TinyTim will get back to you on that one. :sleeping_2:

 

[Allan]

Allan, read post # 8.

How often does he agree on average with most Christians of either group Yet I'm not saying he doesn't disagree all the time either, but he does stay in constant debate with both sides. There is always someone who disagrees but those do not speak for the majority.

God's omniscience and foreknowledge are so closely linked that a division only seems academic.

Oh, I agree they are closely related but at the same time they are not necessarly the same thing. We all agree (mojority at least) that God is all knowing thus omniscient.
The term omniscient of itself doesn't imply 'how' God knows everything but that God does know everything.

However the term Foreknowledge is something God stated concerning His knowledge (and when it happened in relation to creation) but is not something He elaborated on with regard to how it functions in and with God. The mechanics of that is something that 'man' has 'presumed' in accordance with our understanding to it theologically.

TinyTim will get back to you on that one. :sleeping_2:

I enjoyed those threads

 

[convicted1]

I remember one time talking to Bro Bob after a wake one night at how close we are in regards to our Calvinist Brethern. We(ORBS) believe that one can't come to Christwithout His call.Ibelieve that when we are saved, we are saved until the day that the Lord returns. The main stumbling blocks are the Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election. We(ORBs) also believe in Election by Grace, but that the Grace is not limited, nor the Election is unconditional. We are VERY close in a lot of other ways with them. I just "skimmed" over the thread, so I hope this aligns itself with the OP. If it doesn't, I hope it doesn't hijack the thread.

Willis

PS Some of the more strict ORBs are pretty much 5 -point Calvinists. I guess I am 3-point. Preserverence of the Saints, Total Depravity, and I am "iffy" on Irresistable Grace. I guess that make me 2.5 point Calvinists. I know there isn't such a thing as 2.5 or 3-point Calvinists, but I do agree with some of what John Calvin believed.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me throw in a couple of observations on this excellent thread.

Prayer is not for God's benefit, it is for ours. It is a recognition on our part that we are dependent on God for his mercy and grace. I doubt if any of us believes that we can convince God to do something he does not intend to do, no matter how hard and how long we pray.

That being the case, it is also a recognition that God has the power to grant what we ask if it is his will.

That also includes the power to answer our plea for him to save someone.

Yet, sometimes there sometimes seems to be a connection between our prayers and God's answer. Whether the answer is yes, no or wait a while.

I'm not smart enough to figure out all the theological implications. God has instructed us to ask for what we want. I will do that, even boldly, and leave the answer to him.

 

[Rubato 1]

Let's say I come to you and ask you to pray for me, because I have a severe back pain, Why would you pray for me?

Do you believe God will answer your prayer?

Does God have to wait for you to tell him about my back pain, to know that I have a back pain?

Let's say that you believe that God is all-knowing, Why then would you pray to God?

This [bold] is exactly my point. If God knows if He's going to heal your back, why should I waste time praying when I could be doing something productive? I would either be praying against God's will or wasting my time because it's gonna happen anyway, right?
Don't tell me 'Oh, our infinite minds cannot understand, blah, blah'. Would God give us commands that don't make any sense whatsoever, that go against logic? Even those we don't 'understand' don't go against the nature of ours and God's existence.

 

[annsni]

This [bold] is exactly my point. If God knows if He's going to heal your back, why should I waste time praying when I could be doing something productive? I would either be praying against God's will or wasting my time because it's gonna happen anyway, right?
Don't tell me 'Oh, our infinite minds cannot understand, blah, blah'. Would God give us commands that don't make any sense whatsoever, that go against logic? Even those we don't 'understand' don't go against the nature of ours and God's existence.

Well, aren't we told that we have not because we ask not?

 

[Rubato 1]

All of the resopnses to the op imply that descisions are made depending upon our freely-chosen behavior. If we 'have not because we ask not', then we don't 'have not because God already knew we wouldn't ask in the first place'. This verse clearly implies that God waits to see if we ask before he decides to give, does it not?