A Question for the Calvinist among us...

[LeBuick]

Not really, Man only knew he was naked because of sin. Had he not have sinned he would not had shame of his nakedness.


(I think he had already sinned at this point hadn’t he?)
[/QUOTE]

Yes, he had sinned but it was not until he sinned that he knew he was naked (or cared). Before he sinned, he walked naked with no shame. Shame of our nakedness and hiding ourselves with clothe is a result of sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

Interesting question, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: What are your thought on this?

The tree of life was only a picture of the truth.

God told Adam he could do anything but eat from one tree.

God gave man a freewill to choose his own will, or Gods will. When Adam choose to go away from Gods will he was not choosing Gods will which came with this picture of the tree of life.

Gods will had with it LIFE.

Adams choice of having his own will had with it death, and that day he died.

There is no picture of salvation before the fall, for salvation was not needed till after the fall. Salvation is a two fold guilt of man. 1st we are saved from our sins ..the very sins we act out and this only comes though atonement. But also we are redeemed from our sin nature our other guilt factor. Both of these only happened to man after the fall.


In Christ..James

 

[webdog]

This is why my posting on the BB has dropped considerably. When scripture doesn't fit your interpreation you just change it so it does. Predictable.

This is exactly what you did with the texts you posted! I put them in proper context. Talk about changing to fit doctrine!

 

[Brother Bob]

LeBuick;

I totally agree with you and don't think I said any different, if I did it was a mistake.

James;
There is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood and God gave the clothes of skin from animals so there must of been some shedding of blood. I agree it was not the atonement but what was it?

 

[Grasshopper]

Interesting question, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: What are your thought on this?

I believe it brought immortality. If it brought salvation why wouldn't God want him to eat of it?

 

[Grasshopper]

Now, isn’t the end result of "reaching out and taking of the tree of life and live forever" and "being saved " the same? If man can do this on his own it seems that man is able to choose good or evil, don't you think?

Not according to your beliefs. You believe the lost live forever. Do they have salvation?

Immortality is found in Christ. Salvation is also found in Christ. Salvation is not found in immortality.

 

[Brother Bob]

We are talking about those that live, not those that die and never die. There is a difference.

You think God can't give them a body for torment that will burn and never die? God can do anything He wants and that also is what the Scripture says, not me.


It didn't bring immortality for he didn't eat of it. Now if he had of eaten he would of lived forever and that is not die and never die as the lost. why you question the word of God for that is what He said not me.

 

[webdog]

There will be worms that never die, why not humans?

 

[DorthyMontine]

i am addressing your actual arguments, you argue that if man was made to know good and evil then this knowledge must also mean he can choose to do that good. man cannot and my verses show you why their is a difference between KNOWING good and being ABLE to do good.

So, you say that man is not able to do good... what about this verse...

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:



Were these Gentiles doing good by doing the things contained in the law?
I didn't ask if they could be saved by it...we all know the answer is NO. But, we're they doing good? If so, then your comment above is error.

 

[DorthyMontine]

One more thought...not trying to get off subject, but the subject was brought up.

The tree of life. I've always understood that the reason God drove man out of the garden and did not allow him to eat of the tree of life is because man was now spiritually seperated from God and should he have eaten of the tree of life, he would have lived in eternal seperation.

Also, the coverings of skin were not the remission, i.e., the full atonement. Neither were all the goats and bulls in the O.T. sacrifices. They were types and shadows, pointing to the One to come. The complete attonement is found only in Christ Jesus, the Lord and He, the Messiah was promised to Adam and Eve in the garden.

Yes, I do think they believed what God promised.

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't know about Adam and Eve I guess we get into personal beliefs there but as far as the Tree of Life I don't believe it meant eternal separation but eternal life with God. There is only one name given under Heaven where a man can be saved and that is Jesus Christ. All those trees in the Garden came up from the Earth but it doe not say that about the Tree of Life. After saying the trees came up from the earth then it say and in the midst of them was the Tree of Life. Also, the river that John saw and in the midst and on either side was the Tree of life. When Jesus died there was a fountain opened for sin and uncleanliness and half flowed to the former sea and half to hinder sea and the leaves of tree were for the healing of the nations. You know the river came from the throne and so did Jesus and out of his side flowed blood and water which believe to be for the healing of the nations. What I am saying is I believe the Tree of Life is the Lord. Now bring it on!!! How many ways of eternal life do we have anyway?

 

[DorthyMontine]

Now bring it on!!! How many ways of eternal life do we have anyway?

Only ONE, Brother!

Hey, I liked your post. It made sense and it gave me a lot to process and re-consider. Thank you for it!

 

[Grasshopper]

You think God can't give them a body for torment that will burn and never die?

Sure He could. Where does it say He does?

God can do anything He wants and that also is what the Scripture says, not me.

Where does it say God can do anything He wants?

It didn't bring immortality for he didn't eat of it.

You assume Adam was created immortal?

Now if he had of eaten he would of lived forever and that is not die and never die as the lost.

Seems if that would have been more favorable consequence. Hell or live forever on earth. Which would you take?

You assume "live forever" is speaking of physical existence.

why you question the word of God for that is what He said not me.

Ah yes, anybody disagrees with Bob, they disagree with God. That seems to indicate Bob=God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Grass;
I don't see any reason to answer you. You are not debating you are just on here to harrass. Must be all that Love of God you have in you.:tear:

Revelation, chapter 14
"11": And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


"10": And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I don't assume anything, the Scripture says if the same Spirit be in you that raised Christ from the dead it shall also quicken (make alive) your mortal body. (physical)

Seems to me I hear a little jealousy calling me God? I plainly said it was not my word but God's.


Once again I don't assume anything until Adam sinned there was no death.

God can do what He wants. Bible says he has all power. Again I don't assume anything.

 

[Skandelon]

i am addressing your actual arguments, you argue that if man was made to know good and evil then this knowledge must also mean he can choose to do that good. man cannot and my verses show you why their is a difference between KNOWING good and being ABLE to do good.

How do you think this is dealing with my arguements when I agreed with you that men cannot "do good" on their own? That is a strawman. We all affirm the truth that on our own man could do nothing good or pleasing. But we are NOT ON OUR OWN! Our problem is that we need to be reconciled to God but God has provided a solution to that problem by sending a powerful life-giving message of reconcilation. You assume that the message in and of itself is not sufficient to enable a fallen man to respond in faith but the only passages you provide are about man's inability if left without spiritual help.

2 Cor. 2:14 for example. As its already been pointed out Paul is speaking about the "deep things of God" (vs. 10) which even the "brethern" in Corith are not yet able to receive (ch. 3:1-2), so it can't be "the gospel" to which Paul is referring. Plus, who is saying that man could understand the deep secrets of God without them being spiritually decerned. What do you think the inspiration of the gospel message was? Is it not a Spiritual decernment of the truths regarding atonement? So this verse is not saying lost men can't understand the gospel unless the spirit regenerates them first, as you assume. It only says that lost men can't understand deep unrevealed truths of God unless they are revealed by God through his Spirit. The content of the gospel has been revealed by the spirit. The gospel is an act of spiritual decernment. Nothing in this passage goes so far as to require regeneration in order to understand the gospel.

 

[BD17]

Brother Bob DB;
Don't you think it is good for a man and woman to hide their naked bodies? Also did not Adam make a confession to God of all he and Eve had done.

Brother Bob let's look at the text and see if Adam confesses, let's start with God walking in the garden... Why does God ask where are you when we all know that God knows full well where he is. He does this to reduce heis speech to human limitations and induces them to come to Him.

Adam replies "I heard the sound of you in the garden and I was afraid." The word translated "heard" is also a Hebrew idiom for "obeyed"- ironic wouldn't you say since that is precisely what Adam did not do.

God then asks Who told you that you were naked and asks if they have eaten of the tree He commanded Adam not to eat of. He asks to prod them into answering His questions and tell Him of their guilt.

In the way that both Adam and Eve answer God's questions they show their allegiance to Satan(sin) by distorting the truth,accussing on another, and ultimatley accusing God cf(James 1:13). Look what Adam says "the woman YOU gave me. Their effforts to conceal their sin only exposes it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob let's look at the text and see if Adam confesses, let's start with God walking in the garden... Why does God ask where are you when we all know that God knows full well where he is. He does this to reduce heis speech to human limitations and induces them to come to Him.

Adam replies "I heard the sound of you in the garden and I was afraid." The word translated "heard" is also a Hebrew idiom for "obeyed"- ironic wouldn't you say since that is precisely what Adam did not do.

God then asks Who told you that you were naked and asks if they have eaten of the tree He commanded Adam not to eat of. He asks to prod them into answering His questions and tell Him of their guilt.

In the way that both Adam and Eve answer God's questions they show their allegiance to Satan(sin) by distorting the truth,accussing on another, and ultimatley accusing God cf(James 1:13). Look what Adam says "the woman YOU gave me. Their effforts to conceal their sin only exposes it.

He asked giving Adam a chance to confess where he was and why. The same is true today, He strives with man to repent and believe and that is "all" men.

Who told you you were naked? Another chance for Adam to confess his sin.

Accusing God? I think you are reading something into it that is not there. I think it is just continuing on with their confession of what they had done. I don't see where they tried to conceal their sin, they told exactly what happened. "oh how the human mind does wonder".

 

[rsr]

Folks, a warning to keep it civil and on topic and away from nasty personal remarks.

 

[BD17]

He asked giving Adam a chance to confess where he was and why. The same is true today, He strives with man to repent and believe and that is "all" men.

Who told you you were naked? Another chance for Adam to confess his sin.

Accusing God? I think you are reading something into it that is not there. I think it is just continuing on with their confession of what they had done. I don't see where they tried to conceal their sin, they told exactly what happened. "oh how the human mind does wonder".

He says the woman YOU gave me, he passes off His sin to the woman saying she gave him the fruit, Adam also makes it clear that it was the woman YOU meaning God gave him the woman, I am not reading into anything, there is no confession, they both try to blame someone else. True repentance and confession does not put the blame on anyone but themselves.

James 1:13 13Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

God, and the dealings of his providence, try men's hearts, and show the dispositions which prevail in them. But nothing sinful in the heart or conduct can be ascribed to God. He is not the author of the dross, though his fiery trial exposes it. Those who lay the blame of sin, either upon their constitution, or upon their condition in the world, or pretend they cannot keep from sinning, wrong God as if he were the author of sin.

So why did Adam say the woman YOU gave me, because he was attributing his sin to God. There was no need to tell God it was the woman YOU gave me God already knows that.

 

[Ransom]

Was Adam spiritually dead after the fall or not?

Do you believe God when he said that if Adam ate from the tree, he would die (Gen. 2:17)?