Do you believe any non elect persons are saved?
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A question only for the reformed, please.
- Thread starter Scarlett O.
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Roman's 4 ....does not mention infants.it is speaking of imputation.
There is no age of accountability. All are accountable from conception.
Who does the letter of the law kill?
I believe in the righteous judgment of God. On what grounds is God going to condemn a newborn infant to an infinity of torment?
I take from your non-answer that your creed doesn't have anything to say about non-elect babies that die. Right?
The only question is whether or not there are any non-elect babies if they die in infancy. To that mystery, I entrust it into God's hands.
Your question implies that you know of" non elect" infants who die. Please give a verse on that if you have one.
Lets get right to it.
If God elects, all, half, or none, of the worlds infants.....are you okay with it?
Do you know of any non elect person of any age that will be in Heaven?
It is not like there are multiple choice God's, where you pick the one you want.
I believe in the Covenant of Redemption...all of it.
The age of a person does not matter. Who the Father gave to the Son does.
The confession of faith is 100% on this matter.
I trust God.
I trust the Covenant keeping God will do right.
Gen 18:25.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
The letter of the law kills every single human being.
But the Spirit gives life. See it is His choice and will who He will make born again, and infants must also be born again, if they are not going to hell, there is no limbo for them like Catholics teach.
We also as saved people are born again before we confess Christ as Lord. God has no trouble saving any person, age does not matter, the flesh does not matter.
If someone thinks the flesh matters, they cant be a Calvinist, since the Spirit gives spiritual life, the body of the flesh is always dead because of sin, dying you shall die, the flesh is dead to God as are all who are in the flesh only.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Worth a read on infant salvation and the power of God
What Happens to Infants Who Die?
John Piper and many others, however, believe that there is one more biblical strand of evidence which must be considered. This evidence leads us to conclude that God saves all infants who die.
A point was made here with the idea some wicked infants go to hell....
"the wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies" (Psalm 58:3).
However, I view it not from that point of view at all, just that the wicked, (those we would recognize as wicked people because they became wicked adults and allowed to survive into adulthood) were wicked from the womb....while some are not wicked from the womb, example is John the baptist in the womb.... do you understand this?
What Happens to Infants Who Die?
John Piper and many others, however, believe that there is one more biblical strand of evidence which must be considered. This evidence leads us to conclude that God saves all infants who die.
A point was made here with the idea some wicked infants go to hell....
"the wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies" (Psalm 58:3).
However, I view it not from that point of view at all, just that the wicked, (those we would recognize as wicked people because they became wicked adults and allowed to survive into adulthood) were wicked from the womb....while some are not wicked from the womb, example is John the baptist in the womb.... do you understand this?
4. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, 12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, and therefore they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, cannot be saved: 13 much less can men that do not receive the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess. 14
12. Matthew 22:14, 13:20-21; Hebrews 6:4-513. John 6:44-45, 65; 1 John 2:24-2514. Acts 4:12; John 4:22, 17:3
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, 7 to the praise of His glorious grace; 8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice. 9
7. 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:348. Ephesians 1:5-69. Romans 9:22-23; Jude 4
4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. 10
10. 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, 11 without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him thereunto. 12
11. Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:912. Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12
12. Matthew 22:14, 13:20-21; Hebrews 6:4-513. John 6:44-45, 65; 1 John 2:24-2514. Acts 4:12; John 4:22, 17:3
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, 7 to the praise of His glorious grace; 8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice. 9
7. 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:348. Ephesians 1:5-69. Romans 9:22-23; Jude 4
4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. 10
10. 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, 11 without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him thereunto. 12
11. Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:912. Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12
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Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Those God saves, those He redeems, He gives to them a new nature, they are not the wicked.
Wow! Hard to read some of these "scriptural" posts.
The God that forms babies in the womb won't let them into heaven when men and women kill them or they die from some malformed disease?
Really?
Lots of seemingly hard hearts on this question.
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Can't wait to see the judgement of aborted babies.
But now he is dead,
wherefore should I fast?
can I bring him back again?
I shall go to him,
but he shall not return to me.
2 Samuel 12:23
context: 2 Samuel 12:14-31
The God that forms babies in the womb won't let them into heaven when men and women kill them or they die from some malformed disease?
Really?
Lots of seemingly hard hearts on this question.
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Can't wait to see the judgement of aborted babies.
But now he is dead,
wherefore should I fast?
can I bring him back again?
I shall go to him,
but he shall not return to me.
2 Samuel 12:23
context: 2 Samuel 12:14-31
John the Baptist was wicked at conception, but God designed to save him there.
Without fail many have gone based on emotions, Spurgeon and others make what I see as unbiblical statements on this.
I view all matters of salvation through the Covenant.
psalm25
7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O Lord.
8 Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10 All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11 For thy name's sake, O Lord, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
12 What man is he that feareth the Lord? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14 The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
SGO,
Of course He will.
Who said that?
What did you find as a hard heart
Of course He will.
All men died in Adam...we are conceived dead in Adam.
What God has purposed to do is what is happening no matter what age.
The God of Jn 3:16 did these things; All ages were included;
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
King James Bible
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Was this okay?
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
King James Bible
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Was this okay?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
Westminster Assembly. Westminster Confession.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, the judge of all the earth always does right, just like Abraham said in talking with God about the destruction of Sodom. That also is talking about their physical destruction. And perhaps spiritual destruction but does not have to be absolute. Everyone will rise at the judgement and give an account to God for the things done in the body, an infant has not done very many deeds to give an account of to God.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
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Hello SD,
In your understanding, How can infants die if they were not guilty of sin in Adam.
We are not conceived sinless or a blank slate.
In your understanding, How can infants die if they were not guilty of sin in Adam.
We are not conceived sinless or a blank slate.
Think there is a variation of understanding on this issue, as some see only the elect babies will be saved, others that the babies from saved parents, others that none will be, while some like me that all will be!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
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