A Seeker Asks, "Does this BB fairly represent Calvinism?"

[DHK]

Good Post
Some feel threatened when a thread closes in on them or their belief system.
You did not question His salvation.You asked a direct question

Direct questions are sometimes deceiving and do not tell the truth.

Did you finally stop getting drunk yesterday?

 

[Aaron]

Your question/post:

The God of the non-Cal chooses "whoso believes on him"; those who do not he condemns to hell, such as those in Islam.
Are you therefore of Islam? Like Calvinism their extreme form of determinism is almost identical to the Islamic Kismet or fatalism. Is your God Allah? You question the salvation of others. I don't plan to carry this conversation on any longer.
I know you don't like it. Others don't like it when their salvation is questioned or challenged either. I trust you will abide by the rules.

At least you gave a straight answer to my question. You just hate the implications, and then devolve into irrational claptrap to "prove" your point.

 

[Aaron]

Direct questions are sometimes deceiving and do not tell the truth.

Did you finally stop getting drunk yesterday?

And the straight answer to that question is, "No."

How can one stop getting drunk if he wasn't drunk in the first place?

 

[DHK]

And the straight answer to that question is, "No."

How can one stop getting drunk if he wasn't drunk in the first place?

I just posted that on this board which has how many hundreds of members multiplied by how many more viewers on the WEB? Do you think they all know that? Not a chance! They all don't know who he is, what his habits are, what his vices are, etc. They don't know how many times he was drunk or if he ever was, and quite frankly neither do I.

So, yes, it is a slanderous question meant to defame.

So is the question that you asked--a direct question meant to defame.

 

[Iconoclast]

Direct questions are sometimes deceiving and do not tell the truth.

Did you finally stop getting drunk yesterday?

Yes DHK...I finally stopped getting drunk 35 yrs ago when God saved me:thumbsup:

Seriously.....in a debate forum the more direct the better....however that being said....we all have to work on keeping the issue seperate from the person.....it is not easy to do especially when continually being provoked by ad hominem attacks.

DHK....I have noticed you are not shy in stating your views. That is good. Hold them until God allows you to see where you have missed the mark so to speak.
You might have noticed that many of us are not shy to call you out on some of your views and opinions.

The question becomes....if you are in error...how can I come directly at the error.....without seeking to crush your spirit?

I think we will not do this sucessfully unless we pause and make a conscious effort to think out why am I posting.??? To help a brother to grow in truth, or to defend truth against an enemy of the cross.

Even if you are speaking against an enemy...you can still attempt to lead him to face the claims of God's law against him, and that the cross is the only way to heaven.

 

[DHK]

Yes DHK...I finally stopped getting drunk 35 yrs ago when God saved me:thumbsup:

Seriously.....in a debate forum the more direct the better....however that being said....we all have to work on keeping the issue seperate from the person.....it is not easy to do especially when continually being provoked by ad hominem attacks.

I apologize for drawing you into this. I was not even intending to enter into this particular discussion were it not for Aaron's post:

Just answer the question.

The Christ of Calvinism chooses some to save, and others He does not. Does the Christ of your doctrine, do this?

This post was an affront to many, and I also had some complaints about it. As was pointed out by some, we are all believers here and we all serve the same Christ. By questioning "the Christ of your doctrine" is questioning the salvation of all who doesn't agree with Aaron. It is calling into question the Savior whom we worship. I am appalled that such a post would be made.

Perhaps if he were addressing Benny Hinn who believes there are nine persons in the trinity, then the quote might have some credibility, but not here. It is simply an inflammatory post. And I am sorry that you got caught up in this.

 

[Skandelon]

Though I did not do so, there is no rule saying I cannot bring your salvation into question. It's an interpretation of the rules about the manner of our interaction. If it is now being interpreted to mean one cannot give a straight answer to a question of doctrine, then it is robbing this board of the stated purpose of its existence, and is actually working to suppress the truth, and to give one sect defacto status and power over another.

1. I did give you a straight answer. I told you that I believe both camps worship the same Christ but that we understand him differently. Obviously, I believe my camp understands him more correctly than yours, otherwise I'd still be in your camp. But, I'm not going to play your game of pitting us against each other as if one of us is IN (as believing in the REAL Christ) and the other is OUT (as believing in the FALSE Christ). For the same reason DHK has already said, such things are deplorable and you really should be ashamed of yourself.

2. If you have a problem with the rules of the board take it up with the Administrative counsel. Right now it has been told to the moderators that such things are not allowed because they are seen as unnecessarily inflammatory.

The two doctrines do not describe the same Christ, and the difference is fundamental, not peripheral. It touches on the very nature of the Atonement. What did Christ actually do on the Cross?

And many Calvinistic scholars like Bruce Ware (recently quoted by Luke), Spurgeon, and some even say Calvin himself didn't support the concept of Limited atonement. Do you think they don't believe in the same Christ as you either?

I can give a description of my son and then his teacher can give a description of him and those descriptions would no doubt be different. Does that mean only one of us know the real son? No, we just understand him differently and one of us is probably more accurate than the other.

and that's why when Calvinism is faithfully expounded, some of the more simpering Noncalvinists get restless and begin to beat the don't-question-my-salvation drums.

Uh, we have no problem with you faithfully expounding on what you believe. We have a problem when you make implications regarding how you are the only ones who really believe in the real Christ, as if the "christ" we believe in is not the real one. We all see what you are doing.

I won't do it, and neither am I compelled by the rules to do so.

ok

So I say without apology, Calvinism is the Gospel, and nothing else. Does that offend you? Well, Christ is the πέτρα σκανδάλου, the Petra Skandalon, the Rock of Offence. You should be glad that it may provoke you to jealousy, but your problem is what was said, not with the manner in which it was said.

I would only get jealous if the people who are coming to know Christ are the type of people I'd want to be around and want to emulate. The kind of people who exude joy and love. Contagious Christians who humbly serve others and give of themselves to build up his kingdom. People like that might win me over to their "view" of Christ, because I'd know them by their fruits....love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

I see from you the fruit of faithfulness to your system, but I haven't gotten to know you well enough to see any of the others, so frankly there is nothing to get jealous about. :saint:

 

[Dr. Bob]

Nobody is questioning salvation. Just asking the salient and logical question: Reformed soteriology says God chose to save some sinners and demonstrate praise of His grace. Others God did nothing; they chose to save themselves and will end up in hell (where we all deserve).

The question I see asked is "Which is yours?" There really is no "third option" and it is a pivotal question we ask folks almost daily when talking to them about their soul's condition.

 

[Skandelon]

Is there any other more dove-like than Iconoclast? And look at how your cast the same in your teeth against him.

I wanted to give this a post of its own. Here are the things Iconoclast said that are a complete and utter misrepresentation of our views and our interaction on this board to a new comer seeking answers:

1. "Watch who uses scripture....watch who seeks to move the discussion away from scripture into philosophy..."

You wouldn't have corrected that with a firm stance, if the accusation where on the other foot? We know you better than that.

2. Who mis-uses verses all the time, even when a proper explanation is given, they still repeat the error , over and over.

How about Andy's advice regarding prayer, study and reading objectively both views?

3. ../usually offer some one sentence deflection, because they cannot respond biblically.

4. Watch how those who oppose truth, more often than not offer shallow non responsive answers////most times without using scriptures at all...as if they have no need for that.

How many times does he say we don't use scripture, that we misuse scripture, oppose truth, and can't respond biblically??? That wouldn't offend you, when you come here day after day presenting text after text and answering biblical objection with biblical exegesis?

I can't count how many countless threads where I have hashed out verse by verse through long passages as has many of the other non-Cal on this board. So, really who has the "teeth" in this exchange and who is "dove-like?"

How many doves do you know?

 

[Skandelon]

Others God did nothing; they chose to save themselves and will end up in hell (where we all deserve).

Cut from the same cloth I see.

I love you and forgive you, but you should really be ashamed of this.

 

[jbh28]

Cut from the same cloth I see.

I love you and forgive you, but you should really be ashamed of this.

Why would Dr. Bob need to be ashamed of this? What part of this are you addressing?

 

[DHK]

Nobody is questioning salvation. Just asking the salient and logical question: Reformed soteriology says God chose to save some sinners and demonstrate praise of His grace. Others God did nothing; they chose to save themselves and will end up in hell (where we all deserve).

The question I see asked is "Which is yours?" There really is no "third option" and it is a pivotal question we ask folks almost daily when talking to them about their soul's condition.

This is a mischaracterization of those who do not hold to either Reformed soteriology or Calvinism in general. It is not fair nor logical to think that those who are not Calvinist are by default Arminian. Yet that is the thinking of most Reformed here. (We could be Hindus. :smilewinkgrin: ). Not everything falls into two camps. The apostles and early believers lived long before Calvin or Arminius. I refuse to be boxed in by any man's theology.

I resent anyone's remark that because I don't adhere to reformed theology that I have chosen to save myself. That is a ridiculous accusation to make.
God saved me in the same way he saved you--by His grace.

 

[Fred's Wife]

This is a mischaracterization of those who do not hold to either Reformed soteriology or Calvinism in general. It is not fair nor logical to think that those who are not Calvinist are by default Arminian. Yet that is the thinking of most Reformed here. (We could be Hindus. :smilewinkgrin: ). Not everything falls into two camps. The apostles and early believers lived long before Calvin or Arminius. I refuse to be boxed in by any man's theology.

I resent anyone's remark that because I don't adhere to reformed theology that I have chosen to save myself. That is a ridiculous accusation to make.
God saved me in the same way he saved you--by His grace.

Amen!

Nobody "saves themselves".

It matters not what "Reformed soteriology" says...what matters is "What does Scripture say"?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.