1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are trying to keep the first commandment if you turn faith in Christ (God) into a condition or work.
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A simple fact
- Thread starter glad4mercy
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First, the only things that are works are those things which are already in the OT Law. We cannot add to them. Second, faith can never be a work as it is not part of the OT law. Third, You cannot have a relationship with God if you do not first believe.
You guys really need to stop using the "works" gambit. It gives the appearance you do not know what it is.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you Accepted YHWH as God according to the first commandment, it was no different from accepting Jesus today. It is exactly the same. And it turns the gospel into law. Jesus says whosoever believes has eternal life. Eternal life spawns belief. And faith is not a condition we must meet, it is a characteristic of those whom God gave eternal life to. It is evidence God saved you. Had he not, you could not believe in any lasting sense.
This reminds me of the Pharisees accusing Jesus of doing a "work" on the Sabbath by healing someone.
I am not a Calvinist and I never accuse Calvinists of ignorance.
Ok Mitchell I'm game!... Then explain something to me... I have a Deaf son who has a strong belief in the Lord... I didn't teach him... He was born profoundly deaf.... Hearing aides don't help him... He is now 37 years old... Tell me where he heard the word of the Lord?... Tell me how he heard it?... So I guess he and all like him who have come before and those who will come after are lost and bound for hell?... Is that your doctrine?... Mine is Sovereign Grace... My Son is saved just like one thief on the cross... Show me in scripture where one thief on the cross ever heard the gospel and believed?... Yet Jesus told one of them Today you will be with me in paradise... What did he do to merit it?... Brother Glen
First of all, are you saying your son understood the Gospel by Osmosis? Surely he read the Truth about Christ, correct?Ok Mitchell I'm game!... Then explain something to me... I have a Deaf son who has a strong belief in the Lord... I didn't teach him... He was born profoundly deaf.... Hearing aides don't help him... He is now 37 years old... Tell me where he heard the word of the Lord?... Tell me how he heard it?... So I guess he and all like him who have come before and those who will come after are lost and bound for hell?... Is that your doctrine?... Mine is Sovereign Grace... My Son is saved just like one thief on the cross... Show me in scripture where one thief on the cross ever heard the gospel and believed?... Yet Jesus told one of them Today you will be with me in paradise... What did he do to merit it?... Brother Glen
Secondly, how do you know that the thief on the Cross didn't hear the Truths about Christ (even from Christ himself) in His 3 year ministry on earth? How do you know the Thief didn't know the OT and rightfully discern that Christ was the Messiah, the One that Moses, The Psalmists and the Prophets wrote about?
Nope... I've heard that argument too... My question is this if hearing the gospel is instrumental to Salvation and as important as that doctrine is why is their no mention of it at the cross?... We are talking of scripture not speculation... My Son didn't need to hear the gospel or read it, his belief came through the heart... Brother Glen
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
This is opens up another can of worms. Hello Hyper....oh never mindNope... I've heard that argument too... My question is this if hearing the gospel is instrumental to Salvation and as important as that doctrine is why is their no mention of it at the cross?... We are talking of scripture not speculation... My Son didn't need to hear the gospel or read it, his belief came through the heart... Brother Glen
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Ok Mitchell I'm game!... Then explain something to me... I have a Deaf son who has a strong belief in the Lord... I didn't teach him... He was born profoundly deaf.... Hearing aides don't help him... He is now 37 years old... Tell me where he heard the word of the Lord?... Tell me how he heard it?... So I guess he and all like him who have come before and those who will come after are lost and bound for hell?... Is that your doctrine?... Mine is Sovereign Grace... My Son is saved just like one thief on the cross... Show me in scripture where one thief on the cross ever heard the gospel and believed?... Yet Jesus told one of them Today you will be with me in paradise... What did he do to merit it?... Brother Glen
First, your issue isn't with me it is with scripture. what I find troubling is that you try to refute my use of scripture, of which you appear to be denying is true, by giving me an anecdote. What you do not do is give me scripture or show me how I have misused scripture. Your failure to incorporate scripture into your response to me is troubling.
Second, you try to use the thief on the cross as an example that is contrary to the scripture I used (i.e. Romans 10:17) I would ask you to show me where scripture ever says that God first regenerated the thief on the cross first. Even with that question in play it still does not negate Romans 10:17. Even Calvinists typically believe that the preaching of the gospel is an important factor in the salvation of men.
So do you deny that Romans 10:17 is true?
Do you deny that the preaching of the gospel is an important factor in the salvation of men?
This is opens up another can of worms. Hello Hyper....oh never mind
I've heard that one too!... Brother Glen
Nope... I've heard that argument too... My question is this if hearing the gospel is instrumental to Salvation and as important as that doctrine is why is their no mention of it at the cross?... We are talking of scripture not speculation... My Son didn't need to hear the gospel or read it, his belief came through the heart... Brother Glen
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The thief on the cross was under the Old Covenant. He was no different than an Old Testament saint from the time of King David. Old Testament saints still believed in God by faith even though their knowledge of the future Messiah was limited. The thief on the cross obviously had some knowledge of Jesus and the things that were said about him. Just like other Old Testament saints, he believed by faith. Did he have the gospel preached to him as it is done today? Obviously not. All this changed after Pentecost. When the Holy Spirit was given to the Church the gospel message went out into all the known world like a thunderclap. Today, when we talk about the message preached (1 Corinthians 1:21), it is a euphemism for various methods of communicating the gospel; whether it be print, braille, radio, street evangelism, and even the tried and tested sermon from the pulpit.
I do like what the framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith had to say about this topic:
10.3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
16th-century Particular Baptists believed that God called His elect from eternity past not based on their ability to respond outwardly to the gospel call:
Ephesians 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Before there was any action on the part of one of the elect, God is the one who chose them before the foundation of the world. I agree with my 16th-century Particular Baptist brethren and trust in the efficacy of the inward call of God in those who are not able to respond outwardly due to a hard providence that prevents them from such a response.
Yes I'm of the Particular Baptist myself... Particular in what I believe... That being said it is ALL of the Grace and Faith of Jesus Christ alone and none of me... Which reminds me of a friend of mine who is also a preacher... He's been preaching over 60 years who has a seriously incapacitated son... Tell that man that his son is lost or dammed... He'll tell you to your face YOU HAVE NEVER MET MY GOD!... Thank you for your response... Brother Glen
Coming to Jesus is by FREE WILL, no matter what calvinism says. God did NOT create anyone for the purpose of sending them to hell with no chance for salvation.
2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Matthew 23:27(JESUS speaking!) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Had God wanted robots incapable of the slightest disobedience, He coulda easily created them, but instead, He wants beings who will love & serve Him of their own free will, which He built into them. Thus, Satan chose to rebel against God.
2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Matthew 23:27(JESUS speaking!) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Had God wanted robots incapable of the slightest disobedience, He coulda easily created them, but instead, He wants beings who will love & serve Him of their own free will, which He built into them. Thus, Satan chose to rebel against God.
Yes I'm of the Particular Baptist myself... Particular in what I believe... That being said it is ALL of the Grace and Faith of Jesus Christ alone and none of me... Which reminds me of a friend of mine who is also a preacher... He's been preaching over 60 years who has a seriously incapacitated son... Tell that man that his son is lost or dammed... He'll tell you to your face YOU HAVE NEVER MET MY GOD!... Thank you for your response... Brother Glen
Again, you hold your experience over scripture.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The audience Peter addresses in 2 Peter 3:9 are believers. If he wanted all to come to repentance why did Jesus not pray for them? “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” (John 17:9) (KJV 1900)
Jesus speaks to the civil and religious officials in Jerusalem in Matthew 23:27, who prevented their citizens from obeying the prophets. Killing the prophets instead. And this is not about Salvation as we know it. It was the wicked nation God sought to gather many times before sending war and exile. The Old Testament Law could not save anyone.
Jesus was speaking of the immediate disciples He was walking with. That does not apply to all saved people. He later begins to pray for all saved people in v.20.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:20) (KJV 1900) This excludes unbelievers.
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48) (KJV 1900)
Exactly Jesus did not begin praying for them until v.20. John 17 is broken down into three sections:
1. Jesus prays about His relationship with the Father
2. Jesus prays about His relationship with the Father and the immediate disciples
3. Jesus prays about those who would believe the disciples testimony.
The ones who were given Him in John 17 are the immediate disciples not every believer after that.
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