A simple fact

[1689Dave]

His immediate disciples are the ones the Father gave Him. Doesn't apply to all believers just the immediate disciples.

Not so. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” (John 6:37) (KJV 1900)

“And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” (John 6:65–68) (KJV 1900)

 

[JonShaff]

Not so. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” (John 6:37) (KJV 1900)

“And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” (John 6:65–68) (KJV 1900)

While these verses have several implications, what do you think it meant to the people in the immediate context?

 

[Revmitchell]

Not so. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” (John 6:37) (KJV 1900)

“And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” (John 6:65–68) (KJV 1900)

Yes so the context is Israel and His immediate disciples even in that verse.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes so the context is Israel and His immediate disciples even in that verse.

Do you notice that Calvinists turn off their "Exegesis" switch when it comes to passages that they cram into their Theological Box?

They scream--Proper Hermaneutics, Exegesis, Context!!!--Until it has to do with Proof Text Scriptures that hit on their theological ideologies.

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you notice that Calvinists turn off their "Exegesis" switch when it comes to passages that they cram into their Theological Box?

They scream--Proper Hermaneutics, Exegesis, Context!!!--Until it has to do with Proof Text Scriptures that hit on their theological ideologies.

Yea the verse quoted thus far only show that Jesus was revealing Himself to His immediate disciples while hiding who He is from the rest. Those immediate disciples are the one's the Father gave Him.

 

[1689Dave]

While these verses have several implications, what do you think it meant to the people in the immediate context?

Thanks for the interesting question. I believe it takes special revelation by God to recognize Jesus for who he is. This happens in the New Birth. and apart from divine revelation, Jesus is up for grabs as far as interpreting him and who he is.

An example might be when Stephen at the time of his martyrdom said: “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)

I understand Stephen as saying all used the instruments of worship, but apart from divine revelation, most worshipped Satan through them.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes so the context is Israel and His immediate disciples even in that verse.

Why did the disciples who deserted him stop believing?

 

[Revmitchell]

Why did the disciples who deserted him stop believing?

You assert that they stopped believing not scripture. I reject the premise of your question. There was no indication that they ever believed.

 

[JonShaff]

Thanks for the interesting question. I believe it takes special revelation by God to recognize Jesus for who he is. This happens in the New Birth. and apart from divine revelation, Jesus is up for grabs as far as interpreting him and who he is.

An example might be when Stephen at the time of his martyrdom said: “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)

I understand Stephen as saying all used the instruments of worship, but apart from divine revelation, most worshipped Satan through them.

Sorry brother, but that really doesn't address the story at hand. you are taking what you know about theology and pressing it on top of the story. What is the story talking about regarding the audience of the original context?

 

[1689Dave]

Do you notice that Calvinists turn off their "Exegesis" switch when it comes to passages that they cram into their Theological Box?

They scream--Proper Hermaneutics, Exegesis, Context!!!--Until it has to do with Proof Text Scriptures that hit on their theological ideologies.

How do you interpret this passage? BTW I'm not a Calvinist. But some accuse me of being one.

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry brother, but that really doesn't address the story at hand. you are taking what you know about theology and pressing it on top of the story. What is the story talking about regarding the audience of the original context?

Again, how do you interpret the many disciples who deserted Jesus?

 

[1689Dave]

You assert that they stopped believing not scripture. I reject the premise of your question. There was no indication that they ever believed.

Why did they follow Jesus if they didn't believe?

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry brother, but that really doesn't address the story at hand. you are taking what you know about theology and pressing it on top of the story. What is the story talking about regarding the audience of the original context?

Please provide scriptural support for your views.

 

[JonShaff]

How do you interpret this passage? BTW I'm not a Calvinist. But some accuse me of being one.

I answered that in my replies to @Revmitchell

John 5--Jesus is addressing the Jews who are accusing Him of Breaking the Law...

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them...

Jesus Then makes the argument--to the Jews--That if you really followed the Father (Yahweh), you would follow the Son (because they are the Same God!!)

23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

And they reject Jesus because they have rejected The Father and His Word...

38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

And Who does the Father draw to Jesus--in context? The Jews who DID believe Moses and Take God at His Word--and Worshiped Yahweh in truth!!

John 6 (at a later exchange)
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

So, what Jesus is Saying is that--You are not coming to Me, because You do not Belong to God nor Believe HIM, had you believed The Father, HE would have Drawn you to me because I and the Father are ONE!!!!!

This is taking place to a particular people at a particular time--not repeatable.

 

[1689Dave]

I answered that in my replies to @Revmitchell

John 5--Jesus is addressing the Jews who are accusing Him of Breaking the Law...

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them...

Jesus Then makes the argument--to the Jews--That if you really followed the Father (Yahweh), you would follow the Son (because they are the Same God!!)

23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

And they reject Jesus because they have rejected The Father and His Word...

38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

And Who does the Father draw to Jesus--in context? The Jews who DID believe Moses and Take God at His Word--and Worshiped Yahweh in truth!!

John 6 (at a later exchange)
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

So, what Jesus is Saying is that--You are not coming to Me, because You do not Belong to God nor Believe HIM, had you believed The Father, HE would have Drawn you to me because I and the Father are ONE!!!!!

This is taking place to a particular people at a particular time--not repeatable.

Thanks for taking time with this. Since faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, I would add to your presentation that only the circumcised in heart could discern and trust in Jesus. And this would reflect back on the disciples who abandoned Jesus and why Peter and others did not.

 

[JonShaff]

Thanks for taking time with this. Since faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, I would add to your presentation that only the circumcised in heart could discern and trust in Jesus. And this would reflect back on the disciples who abandoned Jesus and why Peter and others did not.

Once again, You are making assumptions based on preconceived ideas.

These Scriptures do not teach that you must be born again in order to come to Jesus (although They were born again (those who believed Jesus too) because they believed Yahweh prior to meeting Jesus--that's not the point). This Context shows that Jews who truly Followed Yahweh were the Ones who came to Jesus genuinely. Those who were only offering "lip service" to Moses and God's Word were not truly Following Yahweh, and it was evident because they were Not Listening to His Son. This is not a point to make a doctrine on. This is a "Descriptive" reality of the text, not a "Prescriptive" one.

 

[JonShaff]

I mean we can show this even earlier...John Presents this truth...

Those who truly followed God, Truly Heard From and believed John the Baptist (Mouth piece of God). And What did John do? Point people to Jesus. What did they do? Stopped following John and Starting Following Jesus...

John 1
35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!”

37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, “What do you seek?”

They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?”

39 He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour).

40 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.

Why did they follow Jesus? Because They believed God at his Word Through Moses...And they Believed God at His Word Through John...and by default they would believe and Follow God's Word who Took on Flesh!!!

 

[Yeshua1]

if Jesus did not die for all, than it is impossible for those who are not elect to reject salvation. (Under Calvinism). For it is impossible to reject a gift that is not intended for you.

The non Elect are still personally accountability to God for their own sins and rejecting Jesus, correct?

 

[1689Dave]

Once again, You are making assumptions based on preconceived ideas.

These Scriptures do not teach that you must be born again in order to come to Jesus. This Context shows that Jews who truly Followed Yahweh were the Ones who came to Jesus genuinely. Those who were only offering "lip service" to Moses and God's Word were not truly Following Yahweh, and it was evident because they were Not Listening to His Son. This is not a point to make a doctrine on. This is a "Descriptive" reality of the text, not a "Prescriptive" one.

This is our main point of difference. It depends on how incapacitated by sin we are in Adam. Paul lists the works of the flesh.

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21) (KJV 1900)

And we cannot find anything here that would choose, much less recognize Jesus.

Then Paul lists the fruits of the Holy Spirit. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:22–24) (KJV 1900)

Here we find ample support for Jesus saying you must be born again. And as many as were born again, received him. And without this new birth, we have only the flesh to work from.

 

[JonShaff]

Here we find ample support for Jesus saying you must be born again. And as many as were born again, received him. And without this new birth, we have only the flesh to work from.

BUT, this is a unique situation--they were ALREADY following Yahweh--those who came to Jesus, yes were already born again, but were ALREADY FOLLOWING GOD...please do not underestimate this importance!

Jesus' point here is not to help us in systematic theology--He was making a point to the Unbelieving Jews--IF you TRULY followed God, you would have received me too!!!

we are going too far by saying--ah yes, we have to be Born again first too in order to follow Jesus as well. This was an unrepeatable instance in the History of Christ's ministry. YOUR theology is telling you that this is prescriptive...proper hermaneutics says this is descriptive.