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A simple fact

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1689Dave

1689Dave

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JonShaff said:
BUT, this is a unique situation--they were ALREADY following Yahweh--those who came to Jesus, yes were already born again, but were ALREADY FOLLOWING GOD...please do not underestimate this importance!

Jesus' point here is not to help us in systematic theology--He was making a point to the Unbelieving Jews--IF you TRULY followed God, you would have received me too!!!

we are going too far by saying--ah yes, we have to be Born again first too in order to follow Jesus as well. This was an unrepeatable instance in the History of Christ's ministry. YOUR theology is telling you that this is prescriptive...proper hermaneutics says this is descriptive.
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As I understand, only the born again, from Abel to Abraham, to Peter worshipped YHWH by divine revelation. And Jesus as YHWH when he arrived physically as the Son of Man. So it was always the New Birth, given by God, that enabled faith in him.
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

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1689Dave said:
As I understand, only the born again, from Abel to Abraham, to Peter worshipped YHWH by divine revelation. And Jesus as YHWH when he arrived physically as the Son of Man. So it was always the New Birth, given by God, that enabled faith in him.
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I would urge you to reconsider that school of thought. Scripture is clear that believing God at His Word will bring about the New Birth.

Christ coming to earth is a unique situation in that Jews who were already born again would get a chance to See their God in the Flesh and follow Him as well--and truly born again people WOULD have followed Jesus (if you followed my Father you will also follow me). I've addressed this in my posts. Unbelieving-non born again Jews would not come to Jesus because they would not come to Yahweh--this is the point Jesus was making. He was having a conversation with a specific audience at a specific time in His ministry.

We as gentiles are called to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ--who have NO clue who Yahweh is--and from there we receive the New birth.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
JonShaff said:
I would urge you to reconsider that school of thought. Scripture is clear that believing God at His Word will bring about the New Birth.
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But we must remember, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. This means, one must first have the New Birth before any true understanding of scripture is possible. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)

We already pointed out how nasty the flesh is, and it would never receive Christ on its own.
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

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1689Dave said:
But we must remember, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. This means, one must first have the New Birth before any true understanding of scripture is possible. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
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What does Scripture say?

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

It's always the Same--Heard the Word of Truth, Believed on the Lord Jesus, New Birth. The Gospel has the Power to bring Salvation.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
Wrong, the power to salvation is found in the gospel romans 1:16 and faith comes from hearing the word of God Romans 10:17
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But without first having the Holy Spirit it yields no fruit. “For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.” (Ephesians 2:8–10) (NET)
 
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Revmitchell

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1689Dave said:
But without first having the Holy Spirit it yields no fruit. “For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.” (Ephesians 2:8–10) (NET)
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The gift is grace not faith
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
Please show me what passage that question comes from.
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“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2) (KJV 1900)
 
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glad4mercy

Active Member
1689Dave said:
“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2) (KJV 1900)
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Yes, Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. If you don't think I believe that, you are not reading my posts with understanding. Read my sig.
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

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1689Dave said:
If you must choose to believe, it is because you do not. I need not choose to believe the chair exists that I'm sitting in while typing this.
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Believing it exists is not a "work." Could you type if you didn't believe the keyboard was there?
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Reynolds said:
Believing it exists is not a "work." Could you type if you didn't believe the keyboard was there?
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If it is a choice, it is a work. Moreover, if you must choose to believe, it is because you do not believe. I need not choose to believe in Jesus, he is in my heart.
 
G

glad4mercy

Active Member
Reformed said:
Your post displays an impressive lack of understanding.

First, what does scripture say?

In a message delivered in front of large crowd of unbelievers the Apostle Paul said:

Acts 17:30-31 30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Paul did not say that all people everywhere should repent just for the sake of it. He said that because of the proof of the resurrection, God is going to judge the world and because of that reason all people everywhere should repent. So, there is the imperative – the command. Can all men repent (and by inference believe)? Will all men repent and believe? Again, what does scripture say?

Ephesians 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

God the Father chose the Elect for salvation from eternity past. He did not choose them based on any merit they possessed. No one who comes to faith in Jesus Christ is worthy of that faith. Salvation – all of it – is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:9).

If only the Elect will come to faith in Christ, why preach the gospel? Once again, to scripture:

1 Corinthians 1:21 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

God has ordained the means of salvation (the preaching of the gospel) as the method of calling His elect. Why? I know this is getting redundant but back to scripture we go:

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The preaching of the gospel is as much a proclamation of judgment to those who reject Christ as it is a message of hope to the Elect.

Lastly, none of us possess perfect knowledge. We do not possess spiritual 3-D vision whereby we can peer into a person and determine whether they are elect. So, we proclaim the gospel to all and do not concern ourselves with whether a person is elect. The hidden things belong to God and He has not chosen to reveal the identity of the Elect to anyone but the Son. So, we can (and should) proclaim with boldness, “Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!”
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You all don't even try to understand one's view. Your reply demonstrates that you are not listening.

Quote- Can all men repent (and by inference believe)?

If the Gospel is preached and the Spirit convicts, man can repent and believe by the Grace of God.

quote- Will all men repent and believe?

No.

Quote- Ephesians 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

Yes, God took and takes the INITIATIVE in salvation. Always.

Quote- God the Father chose the Elect for salvation from eternity past.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God, says Peter and Paul, (in Romans 8)

quote- He did not choose them based on any merit they possessed.

Repentance and faith merit nothing. Christ's work is our only merit.

quote- No one who comes to faith in Jesus Christ is worthy of that faith. Salvation – all of it – is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:9).

If you receive a gift by faith, it is still a gift. Nothing we do changes the fact that salvation is all of God.

quote- If only the Elect will come to faith in Christ, why preach the gospel?

Please see Romans 10:14

quote- The preaching of the gospel is as much a proclamation of judgment to those who reject Christ as it is a message of hope to the Elect.

How can someone reject Jesus if He did not die for them?
 
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