glad4mercy
Active Member
if Jesus did not die for all, than it is impossible for those who are not elect to reject salvation. (Under Calvinism). For it is impossible to reject a gift that is not intended for you.
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A simple fact
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If I understand what you are saying, salvation can either be accepted or rejected? I think the truth is that salvation exists apart from our acceptance or rejection (Arminianism) and takes place by God's grace through the New Birth which enables faith and repentance.
What enables faith is the preaching of the gospel:
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Salvation does not exist apart from the gospel for the gospel is the power to salvation:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Salvation does not exist apart from the gospel for the gospel is the power to salvation:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Do you think salvation can be rejected? If not, why are the non elect commanded to believe a Gospel that does not apply to them... which would be the case if Jesus didn't die for them.
If Jesus did not die for them, then salvation is not intended for them, and the Gospel of salvation does not apply to them.
...but as we before have established from the scriptures, men are condemned because of unbelief. (John 1:18).
So is it unbelief towards a Saviour that didn't die for them or one who did? If Jesus did not die for them, then the Gospel of salvation does not apply to them. So what is the nature of the unbelief that condemns.
glad4mercy
Active Member
I agree. My point is that in Calvinism men are commanded to believe "good news" that is not even intended for them, commanded to believe on a Saviour that did not die for them, and condemned for unbelief, and I wonder what they are supposed to believe if Jesus did not die for them?
Does God really command such things in such circumstances?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
All are sinners. But those who trust in Jesus alone, not in their wills, or in their acceptance of Jesus, or other good works, God saves. People believe because God saved them. He doesn't save the self-righteous who think they save themselves by thinking the right things.
God commands all people, everywhere, to repent.
All are guilty sinners, condemned already.
All are guilty sinners, condemned already.
glad4mercy
Active Member
Nice string of Strawmen. Practically an army of scarecrows.
Where does it say in the Bible that initial justifying and sanctifying faith is a result of being already saved?
The righteous are justified by faith. The reprobate are condemned due to unbelief. But as someone said, they were already sinners and thusly condemned. But Jesus said they are condemned because of unbelief.
If they are already condemned, how does unbelief condemn them?
They are condemned because of unbelief. Yet they were already condemned. Think it through prayerfully
How is unbelief the cause of their condemnation if they are already condemned? The answer is so easy, it would bite you if it were a rattlesnake. It just takes a little bit of basic exegesis.
Let him who has ears to hear, hear...
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glad4mercy
Active Member
Including us before we were saved. But please do not ignore the rest of the verse. Jesus said they are condemned already BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE. John 1:18
Why would they be condemned for not believing in something that, according to Calvinists, does not pertain to them?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)
That is, you must be saved (Born Again) before the gospel makes sense to you.
Plus, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must have the Holy Spirit before faith (true faith) can exist. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
Did Paul give the Jailer a means whereby he could save himself? Or did he assure him that believing in Jesus meant he was saved?
glad4mercy
Active Member
You need to keep the Corinthians verse in its context. Go back and read it in CONTEXT.
Faith is both the condition and the fruit of salvation.
Go back and read what Paul said and what the jailer asked Him. What mode was the verb believe? It is not a conditional clause (if you believe, you will be saved). It is an imperative verb
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus says "whoever believes has eternal life". Is this a law you must decide to keep in order to initiate your salvation? Or is it a characteristic of those whom God saves?
glad4mercy
Active Member
A. No one said anything about a Law to keep
B. No one said we initiate our salvation. (At least, I definitely did not )
C. These things I wrote unto you that you might believe, and believing you might have life in His Name.
BTW, this thread has NOTHING TO DO with works salvation. You are using red herring
So when Paul said believe, was it "if you believe, you are saved". (Conditional statement), or was believe an imperative verb. Believe (command) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.
Believing is not a work. It is a Spirit wrought response to Grace. Repentance is not a work. Calling on Jesus' name is not a work. If you think these are works...well I don't even know how to reply to that idea. It wasn't work for me. I didn't have to work at them or work them up at all. They were the results of God's grace opening my heart
glad4mercy
Active Member
Btw, Dave. The OP is not about saved people. It is about unsaved people
When the command is given to repent and believe the Gospel, is it given to saved or unsaved people?
If they were already saved, they would already have repented and would already be believing. Therefore, the Gospel is preached to unsaved, they hear, believe, and are saved. John 3:16 refers back to the Bronze serpent. Look and live. Is looking to Jesus a work? I think not
When the command is given to repent and believe the Gospel, is it given to saved or unsaved people?
If they were already saved, they would already have repented and would already be believing. Therefore, the Gospel is preached to unsaved, they hear, believe, and are saved. John 3:16 refers back to the Bronze serpent. Look and live. Is looking to Jesus a work? I think not
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Your post displays an impressive lack of understanding.
First, what does scripture say?
In a message delivered in front of large crowd of unbelievers the Apostle Paul said:
Acts 17:30-31 30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Paul did not say that all people everywhere should repent just for the sake of it. He said that because of the proof of the resurrection, God is going to judge the world and because of that reason all people everywhere should repent. So, there is the imperative – the command. Can all men repent (and by inference believe)? Will all men repent and believe? Again, what does scripture say?
Ephesians 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
God the Father chose the Elect for salvation from eternity past. He did not choose them based on any merit they possessed. No one who comes to faith in Jesus Christ is worthy of that faith. Salvation – all of it – is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:9).
If only the Elect will come to faith in Christ, why preach the gospel? Once again, to scripture:
1 Corinthians 1:21 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
God has ordained the means of salvation (the preaching of the gospel) as the method of calling His elect. Why? I know this is getting redundant but back to scripture we go:
1 Corinthians 1:22-25 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
The preaching of the gospel is as much a proclamation of judgment to those who reject Christ as it is a message of hope to the Elect.
Lastly, none of us possess perfect knowledge. We do not possess spiritual 3-D vision whereby we can peer into a person and determine whether they are elect. So, we proclaim the gospel to all and do not concern ourselves with whether a person is elect. The hidden things belong to God and He has not chosen to reveal the identity of the Elect to anyone but the Son. So, we can (and should) proclaim with boldness, “Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!”
Interesting that you would talk about handling disagreement in another thread and in this thread make such an inflammatory post which is only designed to belittle someone's view. I would say this is an example of taking one's self way too seriously. What would instigate such unnecessary emotion?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you turn faith into a condition you must meet, you turn the gospel into Law. In fact, it is an attempt to keep the first commandment.
The typical initial response by Calvinists, insult with the accusation of ignorance.
Yep
No you don't. The law is the law and nothing can be added to it. Faith (belief) is necessary because you cannot have a relationship with someone you don't believe in. You cannot sit in a chair if you do not believe it will support you sitting in it. Where does faith come from?
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
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