A sincere question for Catholics

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kathryn:
So you are saying that children all over the world and retarded have faith given to them by the Holy Spirit through His Word and Sacraments. What do you think happens to it? When would they lose it. A Hindu’s child has faith in Jesus Christ until what age about? A Baptist’s child has this faith in Jesus Christ until what age? I suppose it is some sort of faith that can be lost. How can that be saving faith?

The Holy Spirit only works through the Word to create faith. So the Hindu child or adult who has never heard the gospel does not have faith. The Baptist child or adult may have faith through the hearing of the word. A child or adult baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost has saving faith unless he has rejected his Baptismal faith given by the Holy Ghost and, instead, is trusting in his own merits or the merits of someone else other than Christ for salvation.

The Athanasian Creed does not make exceptions:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith.

</font>[/QUOTE]Well praise be to God that the Athanasian Creed is not the final authority in matters concerning the Salvation of man!!!!!

Can I get an AMEN????????

 

[John Gilmore]

Well praise be to God that the Athanasian Creed is not the final authority in matters concerning the Salvation of man!!!!!

Yes, but the Bible is:

He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH not shall be damned. Mark 16:16


Can I get an AMEN????????

 

[Kathryn]

Well praise be to God that the Athanasian Creed is not the final authority in matters concerning the Salvation of man !!!!!

Yes, but the Bible is :

He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 Can I get an AMEN????????

Jesus Christ himself the Word of God is the final authority and judge.
“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12

Titus 3:7
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jesus Christ is the judge and can give his grace by reading the thoughts and intentions of the heart...saved by grace.

God Bless

P.S. Do you guys worship the bible or the Word of God, Jesus Christ Himself?

 

[Kathryn]

Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;


Nothing about Scripture being the final authority on matters concerning the salvation of men. Not even to mentions all the different interpretations here. God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ Himself the Word of God, is the final authority and judge of all men.

God Bless

[ June 24, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[neal4christ]

Jesus Christ Himself the Word of God, is the final authority and judge of all men.

But where do we found out about Jesus Christ?

And to answer your earlier question, no, I do not put babies and the handicap into the same category. When I refer to men being without out excuse that inherently means that the person must be able to consider the evidence before them.

God Bless You,
Neal

P.S. 3AM, I am not ignoring your post. I am just making a passing comment and will get back to your post later when I have a little more time.

 

[Kathryn]

But where do we found out about Jesus Christ?

Through His church. It was through His Church that the New Testament Holy Scriptures were written and all the traditions that St. Paul said to hang on to were passed on. 1 Corinthians 11:2 For hundreds of years the word of God was preached orally, because there was no printing press, and most could not read.

Jesus Christ explained the gospel to the Apostles before He went to heaven. The correct understanding was not lost. You guys are lacking the correct understanding of Holy Scripture because you believe anyone can pick up the Bible and "know" what it means. Of course no one is agreeing with each other here. And that is why there are so many different denominations. You guys have parts of the truth. Some of you have more of the truth than others. All people have a relationship of sorts with the Church Jesus established whether they know it or not.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Sorry, didn't see it!

1. How do you become righteous in Christ?

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2. Is there any way other than Christ?

NO. Even those who will be saved by way of 'times of ignorance' will be saved by the Righteousness of Christ. The substitute of Christ is the only way to have our sins forgiven. He is the only Sacrifice that is capable of cleansing our record.

1. If righteousness is through faith in Christ, that is the righteousness of God, does that mean that Christ is God?

2. If righteousness is through faith in Christ, does that mean that that righteousness comes through faith alone? That is what the verse seems to imply.

3. If Christ is the only way to Heaven, on what basis is He the only way to Heaven?

 

[neal4christ]

Through His church. It was through His Church that the New Testament Holy Scriptures were written and all the traditions that St. Paul said to hang on to were passed on.

Okay, but where does the Church find out about Christ? Tradition is not said to be inspired (God-breathed). Only the Scriptures are. So if it is all oral, there is very little assurance we have the original message. Have you ever played the game where you whisper in someone's ear and pass it around and in the end the message is nothing like the original? Now amplify that over a couple of thousand years. So how do we determine if it lines up with the true message? Through the Word of God. The written Scriptures never fell out of existence.

You guys are lacking the correct understanding of Holy Scripture because you believe anyone can pick up the Bible and "know" what it means.

I don't hold to this. There is a lot of error taught because of this thinking. So I do not 'believe' this.

God Bless You,
Neal

 

[Kathryn]

Neal:

Okay, but where does the Church find out about Christ? Tradition is not said to be inspired (God-breathed). Only the Scriptures are. So if it is all oral, there is very little assurance we have the original message. Have you ever played the game where you whisper in someone's ear and pass it around and in the end the message is nothing like the original? Now amplify that over a couple of thousand years. So how do we determine if it lines up with the true message? Through the Word of God. The written Scriptures never fell out of existence.

Jesus Christ after giving the keys (His authority), and explaining the gospel, also promised to send to Holy Spirit to guide the church to all truth. It is the Holy Spirit which keeps the Church from teaching error. As far as the tradition St. Peter said to hold fast to, he was not speaking of what to wear and how to celebrate the holidays. He was speaking of the holy tradition of what they believed. Here is the Catechism regarding this Tradition that Holy Scripture says to hold on to:

80. "'SACRED TRADITION and SACRED Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.'[DV 9.] Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own 'always, to the close of the age'.[Mt 28:20 .]"

81. "'SACRED Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.'[DV 9.]
'And (Holy) TRADITION transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.'[DV 9.]"

The assurances we have it right, are the promises of Jesus Christ that after sending the Holy Spirit, and the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. Holy Scripture is confident enough to call the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. This confidence not to teach error is because of the Holy Spirit, not because of human effort.

God Bless

[ June 24, 2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

California post,

Amen and Amen! 'Thy Word is truth.'

 

[Ray Berrian]

John Gilmore,

Amen! I always thought Jesus saved and not a denominational label, even Roman Catholic. Is their system supposed to save? The building? The priest? or the Pope? John 3:16 should be on the front page of any catechetical text. If we miss this verse, we will be sitting at last in the Lake of fire.

Ray

 

[Kathryn]

The word of God is truth. Jesus Christ Himself is the final authority on men’s salvation, and he left the Church as the pillar and support of the truth.

"Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.” John 17:17

“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12

“.....church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” 1 Timothy 3:15

Amen, Amen!!

Or, you don’t believe certain parts of the Word of God? Oh, yes the church is invisible and not really "the pillar and support of the truth", and doesn't really have the keys, they got lost or something along with the explanations of what the scriptures all meant.


The Church is the Body of Christ. It is the communion of saints, it's the laity, the priest, the bishops, the Pope, and it has the apostles as the foundation, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone of this foundation. This is what the word of God tells us.

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;" Matthew 5:14

Hardly invisible. The Church has people and buildings, churches and Cathedrals, the spiritual and the physical...it's a real city of God...a city set on a hill.


God Bless

P.S. Why don't you guys stick with the word of God and tell me what church Jesus established that is this city on a hill___the pillar and foundation of truth, if it is not the Catholic Church. Oh yes, what happened to the keys, the Old Testament symbol of the King's authority? And what about the traditions that the Church was to hold fast to whether written or oral? What happened to it? Also, I hope this Church also anoints the sick as Jesus' Church does according to the word of God:

"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him." James 5:14-15

[ June 24, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Kathryn,

I believe the church is made up of only those who truly believe in Jesus and are saved. He knows who is making up His church. You being a sacramental church hold that the authority resides in the duly ordained priest and basicly the sacraments.

We believe our pastors represent the church and have the 'keys to the kingdom.' We are inclined to direct people to have their own personal relationship to Christ by receiving Him into their lives. This is accomplished with repentance, confession of sin and a trust in His finished work at the Cross. We believe in the sacraments but they are to us symbols of His real body and blood that was shed for us. Personally, I believe when I receive the Communion that I am receiving spiritual strength through this action of my faith in receiving.

The church that I last pastored at was a cathedral church and was very worshipful, but I realize that probably not everyone sitting in my church has been born of the Spirit. God's people are in many different buildings and denominations.

We are told that even some clergy when they stand before the Lord are going to be turned away and into Hell. [Matthew 7:21-23] He will say 'I never knew you.' He will not say, 'I knew you at one time but then you backslid.' And yet in John 10:27b Jesus says, 'I now My sheep. . . . and they shall never perish.'

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
Well praise be to God that the Athanasian Creed is not the final authority in matters concerning the Salvation of man!!!!!

Yes, but the Bible is:

He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH not shall be damned. Mark 16:16


Can I get an AMEN????????

You must be misunderstanding me. I was referring to the quote which states that we must be part of the Catholic CRUTCH.

Carry on.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Well praise be to God that the Athanasian Creed is not the final authority in matters concerning the Salvation of man !!!!!

Yes, but the Bible is :

He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 Can I get an AMEN????????

Jesus Christ himself the Word of God is the final authority and judge.
“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12

Titus 3:7
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jesus Christ is the judge and can give his grace by reading the thoughts and intentions of the heart...saved by grace.

God Bless

P.S. Do you guys worship the bible or the Word of God, Jesus Christ Himself? </font>[/QUOTE]Amen Kathryn,

I worship the Word of God, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Man, the Image of the Invisible God.

HE is who I was thinking of when I was thanking God that the Athanasian Creed is not the final authority!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
1. If righteousness is through faith in Christ, that is the righteousness of God, does that mean that Christ is God?

Huh? If eating is through the purchase of food in a store, that is the food from a farm, does that mean that the food is a farm?
We obtain Christ's righteousness, that HE obtained from God, through Faith in Him.

2. If righteousness is through faith in Christ, does that mean that that righteousness comes through faith alone? That is what the verse seems to imply.

Again, HUH? Yes, just as I said before, and was pretty point blank about my answer. We obtain the righteousness of Christ through FAITH. How else would we get it?

3. If Christ is the only way to Heaven, on what basis is He the only way to Heaven?

On the basis that the Bible says so.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What game are we playing?

 

[Kathryn]

Ray:
The Church you describe has some elements of truth, but is not the church described in Holy Scripture.

The Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth will have the wheat and the chaff side by side until Jesus Christ gathers His wheat into the barn and burns the chaff in the fire.

"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:12

The Pillar and foundation of truth church has the keys, which were given to first Peter and the apostles. This was real authority of Jesus Christ Himself, with real authority to go to all nations baptizing and teaching all He commanded. The authority of Jesus Christ to bind and loose sin. The authority to anoint the sick and offer the prayer that would forgive sin. The authority to bless the cup of blessing and break the bread. Jesus Christ gave his command to Peter…feed my sheep….feed my lambs….feed my sheep. He was left the chief shepherd. Jesus Christ has promised to separate the goats from the sheep. He is the judge of who belong to him, not us.

Scripture teaches that Communion is more than symbols of his body and blood. It is sharing in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The Supper of the Lamb.

“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16

The Sacraments give us grace… a sharing in His life. The river of living water. (John 7:38) This is how we are made holy. Not just declared righteous. But, really holy.

1 Peter 1:15
but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior ;

1 Peter 1:16
because it is written, " YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY. "

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God .

The sacraments are the instruments of his grace, his life, Jesus Christ gives His Church. The Church that Jesus established is the kingdom of God that is within us. The Body of Christ, the Communion of saints. We are one with Jesus Christ and He is one with us. He alone is the judge of the living and the dead and will thresh out the weeds and burn them.

The Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth is a city set on a hill, the light of the world. The Church is the Body of Christ, a living body which gives life to everything. This is the Church described in Holy Scripture.

God Bless

 

[Kathryn]

Kelly

I worship the Word of God, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Man, the Image of the Invisible God.

HE is who I was thinking of when I was thanking God that the Athanasian Creed is not the final authority!

I understood that from you.

I agreed with you too!

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Kathryn,

Last I checked it was a city set on SEVEN hills, which fulfills a whole different prophecy than the one you are referring to.

 

[Kathryn]

Last I checked it was a city set on SEVEN hills, which fulfills a whole different prophecy than the one you are referring to.

Ah, but you guys ignore all the Scripture Old Testament and New that describe what Jesus Christ's true Church will be.

God Bless