A Statement from the Calvinism Advisory Committee

[Van]

Problem statement rather than Program to address it.

1) God desires for all to come to repentance, yet not all do. Calvinist say God only desires the Elect to come to repentance and therefore only grants repentance to the Elect.

2) Humans are ruined by the Fall, yet required to respond in faith. Calvinists say all men are unable to respond in faith until enabled by Irresistible Grace, then they are compelled to "willingly" come to faith.

3) God is sovereign in salvation, yet individuals are still held responsible for their reception or rejection of the Gospel. Calvinism claims even though the fallen are unable to receive the gospel, God punishes the fallen even though they are compelled to reject the gospel.

4) We agree that God loves everyone and desires to save everyone, but we differ as to why only some are ultimately saved. Calvinists denies that God desires to save everyone, He limits His desire to those chosen before creation.

5) Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

We differ as to whether the response of faith plays a role in one’s election. Calvinists say we are chosen unconditionally then given faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith.


6) We agree that the penal and substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sins of the entire world, but we differ as to whether Jesus actually substituted for the sins of all people or only the elect. This needs to be edited as follows: We agree that the substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sin of the entire world, but we differ whether Christ died as a ransom for all. Calvinists say Christ died only for the elect.

7) We agree that the Gospel should be proclaimed to everyone, but we differ as to whether or how every hearer will be enabled to respond. Calvinists say only those enabled by Irresistible Grace can respond.

8) We agree that everyone has inherited Adam’s hopelessly fallen sin nature, but we differ as to whether we also inherit his guilt.

9) We agree that men and women are sinners, but we differ about the effects of sin on the mind and the will. Calvinists assert Total Spiritual Inability

10) We recognize the differences among us between the Calvinists who believe that [Adam's] sin nullifies freedom to respond to the Gospel and those who believe that freedom to respond to the Gospel is marred but not nullified.

11) We agree that God is absolutely sovereign in initiating salvation, uniting the believer to Himself, and preserving the believer to the end, but we differ as to how God expresses His sovereignty with respect to human freedom.

12) We agree that the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel enables sinners to be saved, but we differ as to whether this grace is resistible or as Calvinism claims irresistible.

13) We agree on the necessity of regeneration that results in God-ordained, Christ-centered, Spirit-empowered obedience from the heart, but differ as to whether faith precedes regeneration or as Calvinism claims regeneration precedes faith.

14) We agree that most Southern Baptists believe that those who die before they are capable of moral action go to heaven through the grace of God and the atonement of Christ, even as they differ as to why this is so.

All of these 14 issues are addressed in scripture, but the Biblical views are denied by Calvinism in favor of the traditions of men.

 

[Mexdeaf]

This is EXACTLY the point that I have made in other threads that Calvinism discourages evangelism. This is a description of LIFESTYLE EVANGELISM not SOUL WINNING. As much as I have disagreed with EWF, his question about "beating the streets" is exactly the type of evangelism that Paul and others did. They did not just live out their life waiting for an opportunity for God to send someone divinely appointed to salvation their way. They went "daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ" Acts 5:42.

Jesus (and nearly every Calvinist that I know) practiced(s) "lifestyle evangelism" but IFB prefer to call it "soul winning". Same difference.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I think the entire book of Acts disagrees. Jesus said "GO". If God were to merely send people our way because they were divinely appointed, then we could just be a couch potato eating Twinkies.
There is nothing wrong with awaiting opportunities and speaking up when possible, but when that is the ONLY time someone decides to be a witness for Christ, that is NOT being obedient to the Great Commission. We are supposed to SEEK opportunities, not just sit and wait for them. Christ came to SEEK and save that which was lost.

You're just a log picking out splinters here.

 

[Van]

The tentacles of the TULIP

God desires for all to come to repentance, yet not all do. Calvinism says God only desires the Elect to come to repentance and therefore only grants repentance to the Elect. "L"

2) Humans are ruined by the Fall, yet required to respond in faith. Calvinists say all men are unable to respond in faith until enabled by Irresistible Grace, then they are compelled to "willingly" come to faith. "T"

3) God is sovereign in salvation, yet individuals are still held responsible for their reception or rejection of the Gospel. Calvinism claims even though the fallen are unable to receive the gospel, God punishes the fallen even though they are compelled to reject the gospel. "T"

4) We agree that God loves everyone and desires to save everyone, but we differ as to why only some are ultimately saved. Calvinists denies that God desires to save everyone, He limits His desire to those chosen before creation. "L"

5) Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

We differ as to whether the response of faith plays a role in one’s election. Calvinists say we are chosen unconditionally then given faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith. "U"

6) We agree that the penal and substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sins of the entire world, but we differ as to whether Jesus actually substituted for the sins of all people or only the elect. This needs to be edited as follows: We agree that the substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sin of the entire world, but we differ whether Christ died as a ransom for all. Calvinists say Christ died only for the elect. "L"

7) We agree that the Gospel should be proclaimed to everyone, but we differ as to whether or how every hearer will be enabled to respond. Calvinists say only those enabled by Irresistible Grace can respond."I"

8) We agree that everyone has inherited Adam’s hopelessly fallen sin nature, but we differ as to whether we also inherit his guilt. Rather than guilt, it is the consequence of Adam's sin, corruption and separation from God, that is spiritually inherited. Thus the actual issue is whether we are condemned from conception or from our first volitional sin.

9) We agree that men and women are sinners, but we differ about the effects of sin on the mind and the will. Calvinists assert Total Spiritual Inability. "T"

10) We recognize the differences among us between the Calvinists who believe that [Adam's] sin nullifies freedom to respond to the Gospel and those who believe that freedom to respond to the Gospel is marred but not nullified. "T"

11) We agree that God is absolutely sovereign in initiating salvation, uniting the believer to Himself, and preserving the believer to the end, but we differ as to how God expresses His sovereignty with respect to human freedom. "I"

12) We agree that the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel enables sinners to be saved, but we differ as to whether this grace is resistible or as Calvinism claims irresistible."I"

13) We agree on the necessity of regeneration that results in God-ordained, Christ-centered, Spirit-empowered obedience from the heart, but differ as to whether faith precedes regeneration or as Calvinism claims regeneration precedes faith. "U"

14) We agree that most Southern Baptists believe that those who die before they are capable of moral action go to heaven through the grace of God and the atonement of Christ, even as they differ as to why this is so. This refers to the conditional election of the innocent, thus is an exception to the "U".

All of these 14 issues are addressed in scripture, but the Biblical views are denied by Calvinism in favor of the traditions of men.

 

[Rippon]

Are you saying that all or most Reformed denominations are apostate? You better choose your words carefully. I really think you type your keystrokes without really engaging in biblical thought and generous doses of reality.

Are you relegating the PRC,OPC,PCA,just to name a few, to the camp of the apostate?

BJ.You didn't address what I was speaking about. Please be clear. Don't dance.

 

[Luke2427]

No sir, you chose to leave.




No foundation



False accusation and an overreaction to cooperation.




The "SBC" is not a disciplinary body. According to scripture that is to be done at the local level.



A rather broad brush and untrue.




Worldliness is rampant in all churches everywhere.



False accusation




Another broad brush and a complete misunderstanding of the role the SBC plays. This is an issue to be handled at the local level.





Without foundation and a broad brush.




Say you. Another false accusation and a broad brush




False





There is some truth to this but again to broad a brush



False





This doctrine is in error and sounds like the old KJV only, hank waving nut balls that do not know how to do anything but sit in the corner pointing their finger accusing everyone but themselves.


But in the end this response to my post avoids my comment and only works to re-direct from the truth.

Yes.

You nailed it.

 

[Yeshua1]

1) God desires for all to come to repentance, yet not all do. Calvinist say God only desires the Elect to come to repentance and therefore only grants repentance to the Elect.

2) Humans are ruined by the Fall, yet required to respond in faith. Calvinists say all men are unable to respond in faith until enabled by Irresistible Grace, then they are compelled to "willingly" come to faith.

3) God is sovereign in salvation, yet individuals are still held responsible for their reception or rejection of the Gospel. Calvinism claims even though the fallen are unable to receive the gospel, God punishes the fallen even though they are compelled to reject the gospel.

4) We agree that God loves everyone and desires to save everyone, but we differ as to why only some are ultimately saved. Calvinists denies that God desires to save everyone, He limits His desire to those chosen before creation.

5) Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

We differ as to whether the response of faith plays a role in one’s election. Calvinists say we are chosen unconditionally then given faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith.


6) We agree that the penal and substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sins of the entire world, but we differ as to whether Jesus actually substituted for the sins of all people or only the elect. This needs to be edited as follows: We agree that the substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sin of the entire world, but we differ whether Christ died as a ransom for all. Calvinists say Christ died only for the elect.

7) We agree that the Gospel should be proclaimed to everyone, but we differ as to whether or how every hearer will be enabled to respond. Calvinists say only those enabled by Irresistible Grace can respond.

8) We agree that everyone has inherited Adam’s hopelessly fallen sin nature, but we differ as to whether we also inherit his guilt.

9) We agree that men and women are sinners, but we differ about the effects of sin on the mind and the will. Calvinists assert Total Spiritual Inability

10) We recognize the differences among us between the Calvinists who believe that [Adam's] sin nullifies freedom to respond to the Gospel and those who believe that freedom to respond to the Gospel is marred but not nullified.

11) We agree that God is absolutely sovereign in initiating salvation, uniting the believer to Himself, and preserving the believer to the end, but we differ as to how God expresses His sovereignty with respect to human freedom.

12) We agree that the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel enables sinners to be saved, but we differ as to whether this grace is resistible or as Calvinism claims irresistible.

13) We agree on the necessity of regeneration that results in God-ordained, Christ-centered, Spirit-empowered obedience from the heart, but differ as to whether faith precedes regeneration or as Calvinism claims regeneration precedes faith.

14) We agree that most Southern Baptists believe that those who die before they are capable of moral action go to heaven through the grace of God and the atonement of Christ, even as they differ as to why this is so.

All of these 14 issues are addressed in scripture, but the Biblical views are denied by Calvinism in favor of the traditions of men.

Election based upon the sovereign Will of God....
Those so elected shall receive the required faith/grace to be enabled to believe unto Jesusfor salvation
All so enabled will place faith in jesus, for their will will ow want/desire jesus to save them
Individual election into body of Christ
based upon determined will of God, not His foreknowledge of our faith placed in jesus

 

[Van]

Election based upon the sovereign Will of God....
Those so elected shall receive the required faith/grace to be enabled to believe unto Jesusfor salvation
All so enabled will place faith in jesus, for their will will ow want/desire jesus to save them
Individual election into body of Christ
based upon determined will of God, not His foreknowledge of our faith placed in jesus

Yes, these are the unbiblical doctrines of Calvinism found no where in scripture. What is actually dividing the SBC is the tradition of men, Calvinism, not the lack of clarity in scripture. The tentacles of Calvinism's TULI are sucking and pulling apart the SBC.

God desires for all to come to repentance, yet not all do. Calvinism says God only desires the Elect to come to repentance and therefore only grants repentance to the Elect. "L"

2) Humans are ruined by the Fall, yet required to respond in faith. Calvinists say all men are unable to respond in faith until enabled by Irresistible Grace, then they are compelled to "willingly" come to faith. "T"

3) God is sovereign in salvation, yet individuals are still held responsible for their reception or rejection of the Gospel. Calvinism claims even though the fallen are unable to receive the gospel, God punishes the fallen even though they are compelled to reject the gospel. "T"

4) We agree that God loves everyone and desires to save everyone, but we differ as to why only some are ultimately saved. Calvinists denies that God desires to save everyone, He limits His desire to those chosen before creation. "L"

5) Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

We differ as to whether the response of faith plays a role in one’s election. Calvinists say we are chosen unconditionally then given faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith. "U"

6) We agree that the penal and substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sins of the entire world, but we differ as to whether Jesus actually substituted for the sins of all people or only the elect. This needs to be edited as follows: We agree that the substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sin of the entire world, but we differ whether Christ died as a ransom for all. Calvinists say Christ died only for the elect. "L"

7) We agree that the Gospel should be proclaimed to everyone, but we differ as to whether or how every hearer will be enabled to respond. Calvinists say only those enabled by Irresistible Grace can respond."I"

8) We agree that everyone has inherited Adam’s hopelessly fallen sin nature, but we differ as to whether we also inherit his guilt. Rather than guilt, it is the consequence of Adam's sin, corruption and separation from God, that is spiritually inherited. Thus the actual issue is whether we are condemned from conception or from our first volitional sin.

9) We agree that men and women are sinners, but we differ about the effects of sin on the mind and the will. Calvinists assert Total Spiritual Inability. "T"

10) We recognize the differences among us between the Calvinists who believe that [Adam's] sin nullifies freedom to respond to the Gospel and those who believe that freedom to respond to the Gospel is marred but not nullified. "T"

11) We agree that God is absolutely sovereign in initiating salvation, uniting the believer to Himself, and preserving the believer to the end, but we differ as to how God expresses His sovereignty with respect to human freedom. "I"

12) We agree that the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel enables sinners to be saved, but we differ as to whether this grace is resistible or as Calvinism claims irresistible."I"

13) We agree on the necessity of regeneration that results in God-ordained, Christ-centered, Spirit-empowered obedience from the heart, but differ as to whether faith precedes regeneration or as Calvinism claims regeneration precedes faith. "U"

14) We agree that most Southern Baptists believe that those who die before they are capable of moral action go to heaven through the grace of God and the atonement of Christ, even as they differ as to why this is so. This refers to the conditional election of the innocent, thus is an exception to the "U".

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, these are the unbiblical doctrines of Calvinism found no where in scripture. What is actually dividing the SBC is the tradition of men, Calvinism, not the lack of clarity in scripture. The tentacles of Calvinism's TULI are sucking and pulling apart the SBC.

God desires for all to come to repentance, yet not all do. Calvinism says God only desires the Elect to come to repentance and therefore only grants repentance to the Elect. "L"

2) Humans are ruined by the Fall, yet required to respond in faith. Calvinists say all men are unable to respond in faith until enabled by Irresistible Grace, then they are compelled to "willingly" come to faith. "T"

3) God is sovereign in salvation, yet individuals are still held responsible for their reception or rejection of the Gospel. Calvinism claims even though the fallen are unable to receive the gospel, God punishes the fallen even though they are compelled to reject the gospel. "T"

4) We agree that God loves everyone and desires to save everyone, but we differ as to why only some are ultimately saved. Calvinists denies that God desires to save everyone, He limits His desire to those chosen before creation. "L"

5) Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

We differ as to whether the response of faith plays a role in one’s election. Calvinists say we are chosen unconditionally then given faith. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith. "U"

6) We agree that the penal and substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sins of the entire world, but we differ as to whether Jesus actually substituted for the sins of all people or only the elect. This needs to be edited as follows: We agree that the substitutionary death of Christ was sufficient for the sin of the entire world, but we differ whether Christ died as a ransom for all. Calvinists say Christ died only for the elect. "L"

7) We agree that the Gospel should be proclaimed to everyone, but we differ as to whether or how every hearer will be enabled to respond. Calvinists say only those enabled by Irresistible Grace can respond."I"

8) We agree that everyone has inherited Adam’s hopelessly fallen sin nature, but we differ as to whether we also inherit his guilt. Rather than guilt, it is the consequence of Adam's sin, corruption and separation from God, that is spiritually inherited. Thus the actual issue is whether we are condemned from conception or from our first volitional sin.

9) We agree that men and women are sinners, but we differ about the effects of sin on the mind and the will. Calvinists assert Total Spiritual Inability. "T"

10) We recognize the differences among us between the Calvinists who believe that [Adam's] sin nullifies freedom to respond to the Gospel and those who believe that freedom to respond to the Gospel is marred but not nullified. "T"

11) We agree that God is absolutely sovereign in initiating salvation, uniting the believer to Himself, and preserving the believer to the end, but we differ as to how God expresses His sovereignty with respect to human freedom. "I"

12) We agree that the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel enables sinners to be saved, but we differ as to whether this grace is resistible or as Calvinism claims irresistible."I"

13) We agree on the necessity of regeneration that results in God-ordained, Christ-centered, Spirit-empowered obedience from the heart, but differ as to whether faith precedes regeneration or as Calvinism claims regeneration precedes faith. "U"

14) We agree that most Southern Baptists believe that those who die before they are capable of moral action go to heaven through the grace of God and the atonement of Christ, even as they differ as to why this is so. This refers to the conditional election of the innocent, thus is an exception to the "U".

Where did you get the faith to believe?
What is the basis of salvation to you, the Cross, or being vredited for faith in Jesus?
Why did you believe, while others didn't?
Did you seek the Lord first?

 

[Rippon]

Where did you get the faith to believe?
What is the basis of salvation to you, the Cross, or being vredited for faith in Jesus?
Why did you believe, while others didn't?
Did you seek the Lord first?

Don't copy long posts. It is a big waste of bandwidth and shows some laziness on your part.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don't copy long posts. It is a big waste of bandwidth and shows some laziness on your part.

Does it bother you that much?

 

[Rippon]

Does it bother you that much?

Yes,indeed it does. It's very wasteful. If folks can't focus on a particular thing in a very long post it shows they are lazy and really don't care.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes,indeed it does. It's very wasteful. If folks can't focus on a particular thing in a very long post it shows they are lazy and really don't care.

I don't know if you have been in the military, but the dictum is Praise in public & admonish in private.

 

[Van]

More questions and no answers

Where did you get the faith to believe?
What is the basis of salvation to you, the Cross, or being vredited for faith in Jesus?
Why did you believe, while others didn't?
Did you seek the Lord first?

1) Faith comes from hearing the Word of God.

2) The basis of my salvation is Christ Jesus. He is my means of salvation. His blood, His perfect sacrifice, without blemish or spot paid the ransom for my sins when He laid down His life as the ransom for all.

3) Cultivation, planting and watering, through the power of the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation.

4) No, I was taken to Sunday School as a child, learned of God and Christ, and accepted Christ when I was 15.

Calvinism just puts up one false premise after another, folks, it has a strangle hold on the SBC.

The T, total spiritual inability is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses describe fallen men seeking God and trusting in God and Christ. Matthew 13:1-23 for example.

The U, unconditional election is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses describe God's conditional election for salvation through faith in the truth, i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

The L, limited atonement (reconciliation) is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses describe Christ becoming the propitiation for the whole world, i.e. 1 John 2:2.

The I, irresistible grace is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses show fallen men hearing, understanding and receiving the gospel of Christ, such that they were entering heaven, i.e. Matthew 23:13.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I don't know if you have been in the military, but the dictum is Praise in public & admonish in private.

:tongue3: right, :tongue3:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Yes,indeed it does. It's very wasteful. If folks can't focus on a particular thing in a very long post it shows they are lazy and really don't care.

You just described about half the posts on this thread.

 

[agedman]

1) Faith comes from hearing the Word of God.

2) The basis of my salvation is Christ Jesus. He is my means of salvation. His blood, His perfect sacrifice, without blemish or spot paid the ransom for my sins when He laid down His life as the ransom for all.

3) Cultivation, planting and watering, through the power of the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation.

4) No, I was taken to Sunday School as a child, learned of God and Christ, and accepted Christ when I was 15.

Calvinism just puts up one false premise after another, folks, it has a strangle hold on the SBC.

The T, total spiritual inability is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses describe fallen men seeking God and trusting in God and Christ. Matthew 13:1-23 for example.

The U, unconditional election is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses describe God's conditional election for salvation through faith in the truth, i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

The L, limited atonement (reconciliation) is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses describe Christ becoming the propitiation for the whole world, i.e. 1 John 2:2.

The I, irresistible grace is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses show fallen men hearing, understanding and receiving the gospel of Christ, such that they were entering heaven, i.e. Matthew 23:13.

Van,

Why do you post pro Calvinistic in your own testimony, yet deny Calvinistic thinking in the last half of your post?

You proclaim, "Faith comes from hearing the Word of God." Yet you later state that man is actually capable of "seeking God." If it is Faith that is bread of God by hearing God's word, then it follows that the unsaved heathen natural man is incapable of "seeking God" without God's direct and purposed intervention of God feeding His bread to that person.

You proclaim, "2) The basis of my salvation is Christ Jesus. He is my means of salvation. His blood, His perfect sacrifice, without blemish or spot paid the ransom for my sins when He laid down His life as the ransom for all."

But later you attempt to refute "unconditional election" with "Lots of verses proclaim God's election..."
You attempt to place some human condition upon salvation when you showed by your own testimony there was nothing of importance or special condition that warranted the salvation much less you being selected to be saved. It is on "the basis of ... Christ Jesus."

You proclaim, "limited atonement (reconciliation) is mistaken doctrine." Yet, even the non-cal's hold to some form of atonement being limited. Only the extreme Pelagianist thinking considers that there is no hell. In your own words, "3) Cultivation, planting and watering, through the power of the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation."

You proclaim, "irresistible grace is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses show fallen men hearing, understanding and receiving the gospel of Christ, such that they were entering heaven," Yet in your own testimony you show how that such a fallen man as you accepted Christ at the age of 15.

Are you stating that God's grace was not irresistible to you? Are you stating that somehow you or your parents assisted God's grace? Are you stating that God did not elect you unto salvation and left others to wallow in their own sin? Who of your friends never has come to Christ and has rejected any and all pleading both by evangelist and Scriptures?

What made you respond and them not?

Was it a problem with them? Show me by Scriptures if that is true - then they would have an excuse to go to heaven irregardless of Christ's atonement.

Was it a problem with the presentation of the Gospel? If it were then they would certainly not miss heaven and have an excuse.

Was it a problem of their willful rejection? Isn't that exactly what the typical Calvinistic thinker states - that the natural man is totally unwilling to even seek much less accept God?

Perhaps it as some other problem - but no matter, it further supports the Calvinistic thinking side of the argument that unless God does the direct and purposed work - a heathen will not be saved.

How is it that your own testimony can show certain points of Calvinistic thinking to be supported and yet you desire make much in your denial?

Your own testimony, as you have given it, doesn't support the non-cal side as much as it does the Cal side.

 

[Van]

Van,

Why do you post pro Calvinistic in your own testimony, yet deny Calvinistic thinking in the last half of your post?

You proclaim, "Faith comes from hearing the Word of God."

I do not proclaim that truth, I am quoting scripture, Romans 10:17. Strike one.

Yet you later state that man is actually capable of "seeking God."

Again this is not my view, I am quoting scripture, Romans 9:32, men pursue righteousness by faith and by works.

If it is Faith that is bread of God by hearing God's word, then it follows that the unsaved heathen natural man is incapable of "seeking God" without God's direct and purposed intervention of God feeding His bread to that person.

Faith is the bread of life, Jesus Christ is the bread of life, whoever comes to Him will never be hungry and whoever believes in His shall never thirst, John 6:35 Yes, we do not seek what has not been revealed, but God has revealed Himself, not only in the Bible, but in what He has made, and in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ.

You proclaim, "2) The basis of my salvation is Christ Jesus. He is my means of salvation. His blood, His perfect sacrifice, without blemish or spot paid the ransom for my sins when He laid down His life as the ransom for all."

Yes, Christ is the basis of my salvation. God accepting my faith in Christ is the basis of my election, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

But later you attempt to refute "unconditional election" with "Lots of verses proclaim God's election..."

Yes, in addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:13, we have 1 Peter 2:9-10, James 2:5, and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30.

You attempt to place some human condition upon salvation

No!!!! I said our election for salvation was conditioned upon God accepting our faith, crediting it as righteousness. I you want to play games and misrepresent scripture, why waste the time? Romans 4:4-5,24 makes our conditional election, obvious to anyone willing to accept scripture over the traditions of men.

when you showed by your own testimony there was nothing of importance or special condition that warranted the salvation much less you being selected to be saved. It is on "the basis of ... Christ Jesus."

Yet another fiction, I did not show that was no "special condition" that "warranted" being "selected to be saved. The opposite was shown, that God credits our faith, or not, is the basis of our election for salvation.

You proclaim, "limited atonement (reconciliation) is mistaken doctrine." Yet, even the non-cal's hold to some form of atonement being limited.

You use the phrase limited atonement meaning Christ did not lay down His life as a ransom for all, and did not become the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Thus Limited Atonement, as defined by the L of the TULIP is mistaken doctrine. What is limited is that the reconciliation provided to all mankind is only received by God accepting our faith and putting us spiritually in Christ.

Only the extreme Pelagianist thinking considers that there is no hell.

So now you deny Hell. I proclaim Hell, i.e. Hades/Gehenna,

In your own words, "3) Cultivation, planting and watering, through the power of the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation."

All true, the reason some do not respond to the gospel is that they have not been cultivated, or that by the practice of sin have hardened their own heart to the point they do not understand the gospel, i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13.

You proclaim, "irresistible grace is mistaken doctrine, lots of verses show fallen men hearing, understanding and receiving the gospel of Christ, such that they were entering heaven," Yet in your own testimony you show how that such a fallen man as you accepted Christ at the age of 15.

Yes the fallen men in Matthew 23:13 were entering heaven. Thus according to Calvinism they were being compelled by irresistible grace. Yet they were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine. Therefore Irresistible Grace is a mistaken doctrine.

Are you stating that God's grace was not irresistible to you?

Depends on what grace you are referring to. First, lets consider God revealing Himself through the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ. Is that revelation a grace of God? Of course. So revelatory grace is resistible, not all men who hear and understand the gospel, accept Christ and put their love and devotion in Christ.

Are you stating that somehow you or your parents assisted God's grace?

Absolutely, we plant and water, but it is God who causes the increase, 1 Corinthians 3:7. Matthew 13:1-23 teaches that the receptivity of fallen men varies, some have no ability to receive the gospel, others receive it superficially, but when the going gets tough, they leave. Others receive the gospel, but do not put Christ on their hearts throne, so other treasures of this world, relationships or material wealth, crowd out his or her love of Christ.

Are you stating that God did not elect you unto salvation

I am sorry you like to misrepresent the views of others by implying the opposite of their views with questions. Strike two. For about the tenth time, God elected me for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

and left others to wallow in their own sin?

God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteousness. He does not choose those who do not love God with all their heart, and with all their mind.

Who of your friends never has come to Christ and has rejected any and all pleading both by evangelist and Scriptures?

, Worse than friends, a child.

What made you respond and them not?

Was I made to respond, either by Total Spiritual Inability to reject the Gospel, or Irresistible Grace to accept the gospel? No, I chose to trust in Christ based on believing in Him, Now factors that influenced my decision, no doubt, were my upbringing, the witness of others in my family, and in the church I attended.

I do not know why, so far, we have not been able to reach the child. My hope is that the child belongs to Christ but their is scant evidence. The child said all the right things as a teenager, and my faith is in the scripture that says train up a child and they will not depart. I certainly do not accept you futile views which are obviously unscriptural.

Was it a problem with them? Show me by Scriptures if that is true -

The child might have received the gospel as the second soil, but fell away, and then by the practice of sin, hardened their heart. Matthew 13:1-23.

then they would have an excuse to go to heaven irregardless of Christ's atonement.

No one goes to the Father except through Christ. John 14:6

Was it a problem with the presentation of the Gospel?

I do not think so, but we know false teachings can block people from entering heaven, Matthew 23:13.

If it were then they would certainly not miss heaven and have an excuse.

No, we are condemned by unbelief from conception. God has revealed Himself by what He has made. We are without excuse. Romans 1:20

Was it a problem of their willful rejection? Isn't that exactly what the typical Calvinistic thinker states - that the natural man is totally unwilling to even seek much less accept God?

Yes Calvinists like to say "unwilling" which reflects the words of Christ, John 5:40, but they mean unable, due to total spiritual inability. The bible indicates we make the choice between life and death, not death only for some and life only for others, the Calvinist mistaken doctrine.

Perhaps it as some other problem - but no matter, it further supports the Calvinistic thinking side of the argument that unless God does the direct and purposed work - a heathen will not be saved.

The problem, rejecting the gospel, does not in the slightest support the Calvinist fiction. Calvinism was invented by speculation to answer that question, rather than looking for the answer in scripture which I have provided. Why did the rich young ruler reject Christ? He loved the treasures of this world more. Why did the first soil reject the gospel. He had so hardened his heart, he could no longer understand the gospel, let alone seek the righteousness of God. Why did the second soil fall away when affliction due to Christ came his or her way? Superficial, head but not heart, commitment to Christ. We are to cultivate or till the ground such that it will bring forth fruit useful to Christ, Hebrews 6:7-8

How is it that your own testimony can show certain points of Calvinistic thinking to be supported and yet you desire make much in your denial?

As I have said, Calvinist started with biblical truth, but then took it too far, plunging into error, adding to scripture what was never said or implied.

Your own testimony, as you have given it, doesn't support the non-cal side as much as it does the Cal side.

Me thinks you protest too much, you see the Calvinist fiction everywhere you look.

 

[Rippon]

Yeah Calvinists have taken biblical truth too far. Non-Cals have taken the truths of the Word far enough. We believe in God's sovereignty too much in your eyes. LOL!

 

[Van]

Calvinism is defended by the sophistry of men, asking questions that imply ungodly views, and making generalized statements.

Folks, in case you do not realize it, Sovereignty is Calvinism's code for Exhaustive Determinism. And Exhaustive determinism is shown to be false because Jesus said things happen by chance.

What Calvinism does is use words from the Bible but with a special meaning. Thus Sovereignty means God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, rather than God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

Choice according to Calvinism's redefinition means non-choice the non-elect can only choose death and the elect can only choose life. Not what scripture says which is God sets before us the choice between life and death.

Being dead in our sins means, according to Calvinism, total spiritual inability, but scripture screams out that fallen men can understand God's revelation and respond in various degrees, i.e. the four soils of Matthew 13. So the truth from scripture is we have limited spiritual ability, we can only, in our fallen state, understand the milk of the gospel, not spiritual meat.

Calvinism simply redefines the meanings of words to pour their mistaken doctrine into scripture, or they add to scripture such as no one seeks after God with "at any time." The addition is not even consistent with the context which is no one seeks God when they are sinning and everyone sins because we are all under sin.