A Tale of Two Faiths

[DHK]

It is the same pattern, you left out Matthew which is the only verse that pertains to this case. Out.

The only verse that is relevant is Matthew 6?? Hardly.
The word "fool" is used 69 times in the Bible and the word "foolish" 52 times.
The meaning of the word is not found in the one verse that you inserted into this thread. You are way off base.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

In Eph. 2:8, the words "it is" are not in the Greek. They are in italics in your KJV. The words "the gift of God" refer back to the verb and subject "Ye are saved," or "salvation." Salvation is the gift of God.

No one questions that salvation is the gift of God. We just understand that part of that Gift are repentance and faith that God grants to His people.

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,


You deny that because you do not understand the fall properly and have only a wounded Adam.even though the scripture shows fallen man as dead.
You deny this as well disputing the word corpse being used by the Spirit in scripture. It does not fit you explanation so you undermine any teaching that is different from your ideas.

This is Peter's report back to the Hebrew Christians of how the gospel was received by the Gentile Christians for the first time. These Hebrew Christians had no argument left. They were amazed. The phrase "repentance unto life" simply means "salvation."

Your attempt to explain away the work of God will not fly...Peter was quite clear;


17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Even MacArthur, a Calvinist himself, does not use the word in the way that you use it. This is the first time that salvation went to the Gentiles. They are exclaiming that now God has granted salvation, eternal life to the Gentiles. That is all that is being said here.

God granted repentance and faith to the nations. he graced them with it. It was God's action.

The Lord opened her heart. There is nothing unusual about that. It doesn't say anything about faith either.

You cannot have it both ways. When I describe to you EZK 36 as a new heart transplant , you deny it is for the church or part of the new birth...here you say there is nothing unusual? It was a supernatural work of God...He did it all and it resulted in repentance and faith on her part.

You don't understand much about this passage either.

No...I guess I do not hold to your man centered fleshly approach to "salvation"

 

[Protestant]

[ICON]You are the one being foolish.
While on this earth Jesus performed miracles. You are trying to justify your ridiculous theological position by appealing to the miracles of Christ! Pitiful!

Christianity is supernatural at its very core.

We worship a Deity who commands creation into existence by the power of His Word.

That, my friend, is supernatural.

That same supernatural creative power is used by God to cause our new birth, making us a new creation: Gen. 1:1-3 cf. 1 Peter 2:9, Col. 1:13.

The same supernatural power which raised Christ from the dead causes our new birth, making us alive in Christ: Eph. 1:19-20.

Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man.

That, my friend, is supernatural.

The miracles that Christ performed not only proved His Deity as Messiah, they all pointed to the miraculous creative work necessary to convert a dead, deaf, dumb, blind, paralyzed, demon-ridden sinner to one who is raised to spiritual life, who can now see and hear the Kingdom of God, as well as one who has the power to come to Christ, to profess Christ…..one whose mind is now able to think and reason clearly.

To deny the supernatural nature of Christianity is to deny its very essence.

 

[DHK]

DHK

No one questions that salvation is the gift of God. We just understand that part of that Gift are repentance and faith that God grants to His people.

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

Salvation is the gift of God, not faith. It does not say there that the gift of God is faith no matter how you look at it. If one diagrams the sentence they can see the grammar more easily. Salvation is the gift of God, not faith.

You deny that because you do not understand the fall properly and have only a wounded Adam.even though the scripture shows fallen man as dead.
You deny this as well disputing the word corpse being used by the Spirit in scripture. It does not fit you explanation so you undermine any teaching that is different from your ideas.

All you can do here is play your word games and follow after the philosophy of Calvin without providing any scripture for your philosophy. I have given support for my stand with scripture. I am not the who is either confused or in denial; that would be you.
Yes, fallen man is dead. I agree. But the question is "what does 'dead' mean?" Your definition is not scriptural.

Your attempt to explain away the work of God will not fly...Peter was quite clear;


17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God granted repentance and faith to the nations. he graced them with it. It was God's action.

I don't explain anything away. This was a historic time in the history of Christianity. Salvation had come to the Gentiles, as it had previously come to the Jews. This is the way that Peter had explained it to them. What did he say previously?
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
--This is the event that he was referring to when explaining it to his Hebrew brethren. It was the same "pentecost" as it were, the receiving of the Holy Spirit, for the Gentiles. It happened one time in history.

You cannot have it both ways. When I describe to you EZK 36 as a new heart transplant , you deny it is for the church or part of the new birth...here you say there is nothing unusual? It was a supernatural work of God...He did it all and it resulted in repentance and faith on her part.

Christ never referenced Ezekiel 36, and that reference has nothing to do with John 3. No wonder you are confused. You have become too allegorical for your own usefulness. You can't explain John 3 without reference to Ezekiel 3, when Christ didn't refer to Ezekiel 3. That is sad indeed.
What did Christ refer to?
He referred to an OT passage that took place in Numbers 21:8,9
The illustration Christ used was an illustration that required faith.

No...I guess I do not hold to your man centered fleshly approach to "salvation"

I referred to a passage of Scripture. If that is what you think it teaches then your understanding is very shallow.
I believe that salvation is all of God, and like Christ taught by referring to Numbers 21, must be received by faith.

 

[DHK]

Christianity is supernatural at its very core.

We worship a Deity who commands creation into existence by the power of His Word.

That, my friend, is supernatural.

That same supernatural creative power is used by God to cause our new birth, making us a new creation: Gen. 1:1-3 cf. 1 Peter 2:9, Col. 1:13.

The same supernatural power which raised Christ from the dead causes our new birth, making us alive in Christ: Eph. 1:19-20.

Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man.

That, my friend, is supernatural.

The miracles that Christ performed not only proved His Deity as Messiah, they all pointed to the miraculous creative work necessary to convert a dead, deaf, dumb, blind, paralyzed, demon-ridden sinner to one who is raised to spiritual life, who can now see and hear the Kingdom of God, as well as one who has the power to come to Christ, to profess Christ…..one whose mind is now able to think and reason clearly.

To deny the supernatural nature of Christianity is to deny its very essence.

And is there anyone on this board who denies that?
Do you have a point to this post?

 

[Protestant]

Did that [dead in their sins doctrine] include Peter and the other apostles?

Scripture is quite clear. All men are sinners from the soles of their feet to the crowns of their heads. That being the case, all men are spiritually dead to God.

Peter and all the Apostles were spiritually dead.

Peter and all the Apostles were called by Christ. (Judas remained dead in his sins, not having been given the internal call of regeneration.)

All Christians have been called by Christ:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Saving knowledge of Christ is supernatural.

It requires a supernatural revelation from God the Father.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

What about you? Are you spiritually dead?

Had I a false sense of self righteousness, a modicum of religion, I probably would not acknowledge my dead spiritual state. But the opposite is true. I mocked Christianity. I was my own god doing whatever I felt was right in my wicked depraved sight.

By the powerful Spirit of God’s grace I was changed from a Christ-hater to a Christ-lover. I was absolutely passive in my regeneration. I have NEVER taken any credit whatsoever for my faith.

I walked into the chapel faithless and walked out a believer. I began witnessing my conversion the next day. Never before interested in reading, let alone Bible study, it became my # 1 priority.

I was confronted with the doctrines of grace early on. Not in church. Those truths were kept under lock and key never to be discussed. It was through a personal study of outside ministry materials that Dr. James Boice was producing on Romans that I ‘stumbled’ on the doctrine of sovereign grace.

As I have indicated in previous posts my difficulty was in understanding the issues presented in Romans 9. They were above my pay grade. However, with diligence and the Holy Spirit one day I understood exactly what Paul was saying. Dr. Boice’s teaching became crystal clear to me.

The same arguments used against Paul’s teaching are being used today by our Arminian, non-Cal, Synergist friends.

Yet they cannot see it.

How do you know [you are saved]?

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Do you depend just on "your election"?

I knew that had God not intervened in His miraculous way I would still be on the broad road to destruction.

In studying the attributes and decrees of God, as well as their relation to each other, it did not take me long to understand that God had predestined me unto salvation due entirely to His unfathomable grace.

I also recognized that there was nothing ‘wonderful’ setting me apart from my unbelieving sisters. In fact, my lifestyle was much more wicked than theirs.

So the question arose in my mind: Why was I the recipient of God’s grace?

The answer could only be due to His free will of good pleasure to bestow upon me that which – at this date – He has not willed to bestow upon them.

I have in previous posts asked you to examine the reason why you believe on Christ while many members of your family are still enslaved in Catholicism.

If you insist it was because of the good use of your free will, I respond: Then you are inferring you were smarter, more holy – 'better' than they.

I would still like to hear your answer to this dilemma, as would the rest of the board, I am sure.

What assurance do you have that you are one of the elect?

I love Him because he first loved me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Christianity is supernatural at its very core.

We worship a Deity who commands creation into existence by the power of His Word.

That, my friend, is supernatural.

That same supernatural creative power is used by God to cause our new birth, making us a new creation: Gen. 1:1-3 cf. 1 Peter 2:9, Col. 1:13.

The same supernatural power which raised Christ from the dead causes our new birth, making us alive in Christ: Eph. 1:19-20.

Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man.

That, my friend, is supernatural.

The miracles that Christ performed not only proved His Deity as Messiah, they all pointed to the miraculous creative work necessary to convert a dead, deaf, dumb, blind, paralyzed, demon-ridden sinner to one who is raised to spiritual life, who can now see and hear the Kingdom of God, as well as one who has the power to come to Christ, to profess Christ…..one whose mind is now able to think and reason clearly.

To deny the supernatural nature of Christianity is to deny its very essence.

:wavey::thumbsup::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Scripture is quite clear. All men are sinners from the soles of their feet to the crowns of their heads. That being the case, all men are spiritually dead to God.

Peter and all the Apostles were spiritually dead.

Peter and all the Apostles were called by Christ. (Judas remained dead in his sins, not having been given the internal call of regeneration.)

All Christians have been called by Christ:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Saving knowledge of Christ is supernatural.

It requires a supernatural revelation from God the Father.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



Had I a false sense of self righteousness, a modicum of religion, I probably would not acknowledge my dead spiritual state. But the opposite is true. I mocked Christianity. I was my own god doing whatever I felt was right in my wicked depraved sight.

By the powerful Spirit of God’s grace I was changed from a Christ-hater to a Christ-lover. I was absolutely passive in my regeneration. I have NEVER taken any credit whatsoever for my faith.

I walked into the chapel faithless and walked out a believer. I began witnessing my conversion the next day. Never before interested in reading, let alone Bible study, it became my # 1 priority.

I was confronted with the doctrines of grace early on. Not in church. Those truths were kept under lock and key never to be discussed. It was through a personal study of outside ministry materials that Dr. James Boice was producing on Romans that I ‘stumbled’ on the doctrine of sovereign grace.

As I have indicated in previous posts my difficulty was in understanding the issues presented in Romans 9. They were above my pay grade. However, with diligence and the Holy Spirit one day I understood exactly what Paul was saying. Dr. Boice’s teaching became crystal clear to me.

The same arguments used against Paul’s teaching are being used today by our Arminian, non-Cal, Synergist friends.

Yet they cannot see it.



And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



I knew that had God not intervened in His miraculous way I would still be on the broad road to destruction.

In studying the attributes and decrees of God, as well as their relation to each other, it did not take me long to understand that God had predestined me unto salvation due entirely to His unfathomable grace.

I also recognized that there was nothing ‘wonderful’ setting me apart from my unbelieving sisters. In fact, my lifestyle was much more wicked than theirs.

So the question arose in my mind: Why was I the recipient of God’s grace?

The answer could only be due to His free will of good pleasure to bestow upon me that which – at this date – He has not willed to bestow upon them.

I have in previous posts asked you to examine the reason why you believe on Christ while many members of your family are still enslaved in Catholicism.

If you insist it was because of the good use of your free will, I respond: Then you are inferring you were smarter, more holy – 'better' than they.

I would still like to hear your answer to this dilemma, as would the rest of the board, I am sure.



I love Him because he first loved me.

:applause::applause::applause::wavey:

 

[The American Dream]

Hello Rebel,

There is no good reason we cannot interact respectfully. Some go on the "attack mode" so they get a different kind of response.
If you notice any who post civilly will be answered in kind. WHY NOT?
We should be looking to edify each other and grow so we can serve in the real world.
Some who attack post falsehoods and lies that need to be confronted.You are seeing that go on.
Con 1 and Bosley handle the humor part from our side, with the gif,and meme images...:laugh:

Howdy Icon,

I hope my posts to you are as civil as Rebels. Also, I hope you can detect more civil language out of me than two years ago. I do notice that some will never learn. Why we cannot just exchange ideas on the issue, and leave the person alone I do not know. I am highly offended by the word "fool" especially in a spiritual context. What gets in my craw the most is a leader of a New Testament church slinging words around like a typical sailor. They may not be the same words, but for someone in Christ, the words heretic and fool are as offensive as any curse word we have invented. You are a better man than I because I will not exchange any more posts with a certain poster. It will lead to nothing but trouble. Also, have you heard about Tom Butler. If not you might want to go to the Baptist discussion section. Be safe out there on the highway.

 

[Protestant]

It seems you know nothing of the attributes of God.
As Dave Hunt sums it up in his book, "What Love is This?

Which thesis seems more biblical in your eyes:

1. God loves all men, even those He sends to Hell.

2. God loves all believers whom He sends to Heaven.

If you answer # 1 then God’s love is meaningless.

Hell could just as well be your destiny as Heaven.

Imagine this conversation in Hell:

Sinner Man: What love is this? Here I am tormented in everlasting fire. You told me God loved me. And I believed you.

Preacher Man: He does and still does! God is love!

Sinner Man: With a love like this I can't wait to experience His hatred!

The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that God’s love actually saves.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

God does NOT send those He loves to Hell.

He actually saves to the uttermost those whom He loves.....the same ones for whom Christ shed His blood.

P. S. Neither does God send those He hates to Heaven.

 

[Iconoclast]

Howdy Icon,

I hope my posts to you are as civil as Rebels. Also, I hope you can detect more civil language out of me than two years ago. I do notice that some will never learn. Why we cannot just exchange ideas on the issue, and leave the person alone I do not know. I am highly offended by the word "fool" especially in a spiritual context. What gets in my craw the most is a leader of a New Testament church slinging words around like a typical sailor. They may not be the same words, but for someone in Christ, the words heretic and fool are as offensive as any curse word we have invented. You are a better man than I because I will not exchange any more posts with a certain poster. It will lead to nothing but trouble. Also, have you heard about Tom Butler. If not you might want to go to the Baptist discussion section. Be safe out there on the highway.

Have already began to pray about Tom.... I just try and stick to scripture....the others attack it.Everyone can see what is happening .

 

[DHK]

Scripture is quite clear. All men are sinners from the soles of their feet to the crowns of their heads. That being the case, all men are spiritually dead to God.

Peter and all the Apostles were spiritually dead.

And so they were. But what does it mean to be "spiritually dead"?
As Adam was, they also were spiritually dead--but Adam was simply separated from God, which is the meaning of "spiritually dead." (separation")

Peter and all the Apostles were called by Christ. (Judas remained dead in his sins, not having been given the internal call of regeneration.)

All Christians have been called by Christ:

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,
All the redeemed in Christ are "called to be saints." We are called to be holy."
We are called to do good. Yes we are called; called for a purpose.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Saving knowledge of Christ is supernatural.

Knowledge is knowledge, unless you are claiming to have received divine revelation as the apostles did. In that case you would be making the same claims that Ellen G. White, Charles Russell, most cult leaders and many Charismatics make. They claim to receive direct revelation from God. But God has ceased giving revelation. The canon of scripture is closed. All that we need to know about salvation is reveled to us in His Word.

It requires a supernatural revelation from God the Father.

You are speaking like a mystic. Do you base your salvation on the Word or on your experiences?

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

At the time Peter said that the NT had not been written. We don't need direct revelation from God to declare the deity of Christ. Either you believe the Bible or you don't. It is called faith.

Had I a false sense of self righteousness, a modicum of religion, I probably would not acknowledge my dead spiritual state. But the opposite is true. I mocked Christianity. I was my own god doing whatever I felt was right in my wicked depraved sight.

By the powerful Spirit of God’s grace I was changed from a Christ-hater to a Christ-lover. I was absolutely passive in my regeneration. I have NEVER taken any credit whatsoever for my faith.

Salvation is by faith.
When the jailer came trembling before Paul, and asking: "What must I do to be saved?" What did Paul say?
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
And so he did. He believed. It was his faith. He trusted Christ. He put his confidence in Christ as Lord. What else can you take from that passage.
And so we read in dozens of other scriptures the same thing. Salvation is by faith. Faith is not a work. However, Jesus taught if you don't have faith as a child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. A child's faith is innate.

I walked into the chapel faithless and walked out a believer. I began witnessing my conversion the next day. Never before interested in reading, let alone Bible study, it became my # 1 priority.

It sounds like you are basing your salvation on experience and not the Word of God. It sounds like a wonderful testimony. Your life was changed. But did you trust Christ as your Savior?

I was confronted with the doctrines of grace early on. Not in church. Those truths were kept under lock and key never to be discussed. It was through a personal study of outside ministry materials that Dr. James Boice was producing on Romans that I ‘stumbled’ on the doctrine of sovereign grace.

Where in the Bible does it say that one is saved by "the Doctrines of Grace"?
It doesn't. It is Christ that saves, not the DoG. One is saved by faith in Christ, not through the theology of Calvin. I was not saved in a church either. I did put my faith and trust in Christ however, and I know the place and day that it happened. I can remember that event. I came face to face with the truth of the gospel. It is the gospel that revealed Christ to me.

As I have indicated in previous posts my difficulty was in understanding the issues presented in Romans 9. They were above my pay grade. However, with diligence and the Holy Spirit one day I understood exactly what Paul was saying. Dr. Boice’s teaching became crystal clear to me.

These subjects are totally irrelevant to salvation--to regeneration, justification, salvation, etc. Why would they hinder anyone from coming to Christ?

The same arguments used against Paul’s teaching are being used today by our Arminian, non-Cal, Synergist friends.

Yet they cannot see it.

This is a Cal/Arm debate board where various issues relating to Calvinism are discussed or debated. They have nothing to do with salvation or a person coming to Christ. No one needs to know anything about TULIP in order to be saved; in order to come to Christ; in order to be regenerated, etc.
"They cannot see it." Perhaps you are the one that cannot see it.
Everyone claims to be right, but obviously not everyone is.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I knew that had God not intervened in His miraculous way I would still be on the broad road to destruction.

In studying the attributes and decrees of God, as well as their relation to each other, it did not take me long to understand that God had predestined me unto salvation due entirely to His unfathomable grace.

I also recognized that there was nothing ‘wonderful’ setting me apart from my unbelieving sisters. In fact, my lifestyle was much more wicked than theirs.

So the question arose in my mind: Why was I the recipient of God’s grace?

The answer could only be due to His free will of good pleasure to bestow upon me that which – at this date – He has not willed to bestow upon them.

The answer to "How do you know that you are saved?" is by your experience, study, examination, and then finally it is a conclusion that it must be "his free will of good pleasure..."
It sounds like you have no assurance of salvation. How can you be sure that you are one of the elect?

Peter says:
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
John says:
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--Eternal life is in Jesus Christ.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--Faith on the name of the Son of God brings eternal life.
It gives eternal life in such an assuring way that the believer can know they have eternal life, and not doubt it. But that assurance comes by faith.

I have in previous posts asked you to examine the reason why you believe on Christ while many members of your family are still enslaved in Catholicism.

And I have answered that question. I believed and they didn't.

If you insist it was because of the good use of your free will, I respond: Then you are inferring you were smarter, more holy – 'better' than they.

Your logic is wrong. We will all give account of ourselves before God.
If they continue (as all unbelievers continue) to reject God, then they will give account before the Great White Throne Judgement. Believers will still give account before the Judgement Seat of Christ. We are all responsible for our actions and decisions that we make on this earth, and that includes trusting Christ.

I would still like to hear your answer to this dilemma, as would the rest of the board, I am sure.

Why is this a dilemma for you. You make it a dilemma because you base it upon a false premise. A false premise leads to a false conclusion.

I love Him because he first loved me.

According to Calvinism how do you know that is true?
How can you be so sure that you are one of the elect that he loves?
Salvation is by faith.

 

[DHK]

Which thesis seems more biblical in your eyes:

1. God loves all men, even those He sends to Hell.

2. God loves all believers whom He sends to Heaven.

If you answer # 1 then God’s love is meaningless.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God loves all men. God sends no one to hell.
Those who end up in hell go there because they reject Christ.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hell could just as well be your destiny as Heaven.

That is true, but for the grace of God, someone obeyed the Great Commission and shared the gospel with me.

Imagine this conversation in Hell:

Sinner Man: What love is this? Here I am tormented in everlasting fire. You told me God loved me. And I believed you.

Preacher Man: He does and still does! God is love!

Sinner Man: With a love like this I can't wait to experience His hatred!

Why imagine? What a ridiculous straw-man. Such a conversation could never take place.

The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that God’s love actually saves.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

God does NOT send those He loves to Hell.

He loves everyone. There is no one on this earth that he does not love.
He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

He actually saves to the uttermost those whom He loves.....the same ones for whom Christ shed His blood.

He shed his blood for all--all in the world.
However, only those who believe will go to heaven. Over and over the Bible emphasizes the need for faith.

 

[blessedwife318]

.



The answer to "How do you know that you are saved?" is by your experience, study, examination, and then finally it is a conclusion that it must be "his free will of good pleasure..."
It sounds like you have no assurance of salvation. How can you be sure that you are one of the elect?

He gives you Scripture References that give assurance of Salvation and you claim that that he does not know he is saved? How does that even make sense?

Peter says:
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
John says:
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--Eternal life is in Jesus Christ.

No one is disputing that. Although I find it Ironic that you quote a verse that shows Election to be true.

[/QUOTE]

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

At the time Peter said that the NT had not been written. We don't need direct revelation from God to declare the deity of Christ. Either you believe the Bible or you don't. It is called faith.

So apparently you don't believe that Bible here since Jesus makes it clear that God revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ.
I'm a Dispensationalist as well and I even think this argument is weak to say that this in the Gospels and therefore doesn't count since the NT was not written yet. If you are going to go with this line of argument you can't use anything in the Gospels to prove any of your points and yet you love to quote John 3:16. So either you can use the Gospels or you can't. Jesus says that it is the Father that reveals the Truth to us, not flesh and blood. All Scripture is useful to us, not just the portions we deem relevant to our day and age.

 

[steaver]

No one is disputing that. Although I find it Ironic that you quote a verse that shows Election to be true.

Sister, do you believe non-Cals don't think election is true??

 

[steaver]

.... I just try and stick to scripture....the others attack it.Everyone can see what is happening .

No that's funny.....:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

No that's funny.....:laugh:

No...it is sad Steaver. DHK just denied most of the NT by his statements. [using verses in a wrong way is not to have those verses]

Sister, do you believe non-Cals don't think election is true??[/

Give an explanation of election for us so we can see what you believe about it. Just using the word without content does not show belief in it.RC's use the word grace, but actually mean works.

 

[Iconoclast]

blessedwife318

He gives you Scripture References that give assurance of Salvation and you claim that that he does not know he is saved? How does that even make sense?

It does not!

No one is disputing that. Although I find it Ironic that you quote a verse that shows Election to be true.

he cannot explain that verse correctly:thumbsup:
[/QUOTE]

So apparently you don't believe that Bible here since Jesus makes it clear that God revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ.

:thumbsup:

I'm a Dispensationalist as well and I even think this argument is weak to say that this in the Gospels and therefore doesn't count since the NT was not written yet. If you are going to go with this line of argument you can't use anything in the Gospels to prove any of your points and yet you love to quote John 3:16. So either you can use the Gospels or you can't. Jesus says that it is the Father that reveals the Truth to us, not flesh and blood. All Scripture is useful to us, not just the portions we deem relevant to our day and age.[/

QUOTE]

Many of us have left dispensationalism behind because of how as a system it fragments the word of God rather than seeing it as a whole unit that blends together.
They use the phrase "rightly dividing" when they wrongly fragment the word.

 

[DHK]

He gives you Scripture References that give assurance of Salvation and you claim that that he does not know he is saved? How does that even make sense?

When I got saved I knew little of the Bible. The first thing I was taught was Scripture that gave one an assurance of salvation. I quoted a couple of them already.
"He that hath the son hath life." (I had just trusted Him as my Savior; I knew he, by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelt within me).

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--John writes to them that have believed on the name of the Son of God that they may know (not hope so, or guess so) but know that they have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
I had believed. Therefore I had everlasting life; I would not come into condemnation. I was no longer in a state of spiritual death, but had life.

And there are many more.
Most result from the fact that one has believed or exercised faith in the Savior.

No one is disputing that. Although I find it Ironic that you quote a verse that shows Election to be true.

I don't deny election; I deny Calvin's misuse of the term and redefinition of it.

So apparently you don't believe that Bible here since Jesus makes it clear that God revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ.

This was Peter's Great Confession. Christ Himself said that this statement about Peter recognizing the Messiahship of Christ was a direct revelation from the Father. God doesn't speak to us in that manner.

Peter, later went on to say:
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
--This time has finished. The revelation of God is complete in the Book of Revelation, the last book of the Bible. God no longer speaks to us the way he revealed things to Peter.

Consider also:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--In the past he spoke through audible voices, dreams, visions, etc. (sundry times, and in divers manners), but now he speaks to us "by his Son" which is through his Word.

I'm a Dispensationalist as well and I even think this argument is weak to say that this in the Gospels and therefore doesn't count since the NT was not written yet. If you are going to go with this line of argument you can't use anything in the Gospels to prove any of your points and yet you love to quote John 3:16. So either you can use the Gospels or you can't. Jesus says that it is the Father that reveals the Truth to us, not flesh and blood. All Scripture is useful to us, not just the portions we deem relevant to our day and age.

The Gospels do count and everything in the Gospels are for us today.
But Christ is no longer in the flesh today. God doesn't speak to us as he spoke to Christ during His baptism or on the Mount of transfiguration. We don't see things as His ascension. He doesn't perform miracles before our eyes. We don't walk on water. These are historical events that we read about, not perform.
Revelation is progressive.
God spoke to Moses in a burning bush. That doesn't mean he will speak to us in the same manner. Likewise he won't speak to us in the same manner that he did to Peter.

 

[Rippon]

So DHK, how do you define the word elect and its various forms as we find it in English versions? You certainly will acknowledge that God does the choosing --the election of His own, correct?

You will admit that only the elect will be saved --right?