A Tale of Two Faiths

[DHK]

So DHK, how do you define the word elect and its various forms as we find it in English versions? You certainly will acknowledge that God does the choosing --the election of His own, correct?

You will admit that only the elect will be saved --right?

The Calvinist believes that God elects "sovereignly, that is all things are predetermined beforehand by absolute decree.
I believe that according to his omniscience, God already knowing what man in his free will, will choose, elects those who choose salvation to the many blessings that they inherit from salvation. Election and predestination are always directed toward the blessings the believers receive from salvation.

They are never used in the sense that some are elected for salvation and the rest are damned to be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire (reprobation).
I do not find such abhorrent teaching in the Bible.

 

[convicted1]

Paul is speaking to Hebrew believers. He is not speaking to the unsaved.
At one time the disciples came to Jesus and requested: "Lord increase our faith." What the author of Hebrews is speaking of is the faith of the believer. One must have faith to get there first. God doesn't give faith to the unbeliever, the unregenerate. This verse doesn't prove that at all. The "our" is that of the believer, not the unbeliever.

Regardless, God is the Author and Finisher/Perfector of our faith.

Even as Romans 10:17 plainly states, 'faith comes by hearing', it shows an external Stimuli, not internal, at work. Faith comes by hearing and not from within a person...

 

[Yeshua1]

The Calvinist believes that God elects "sovereignly, that is all things are predetermined beforehand by absolute decree.
I believe that according to his omniscience, God already knowing what man in his free will, will choose, elects those who choose salvation to the many blessings that they inherit from salvation. Election and predestination are always directed toward the blessings the believers receive from salvation.

They are never used in the sense that some are elected for salvation and the rest are damned to be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire (reprobation).
I do not find such abhorrent teaching in the Bible.

Neither do all calvinists though!

The problem is still that due to the fall of Adam, none of us can even come to Jesus to get saved apart from the working of God in and towards us, and that God freely has chosen to save some of us out for His glory, and permitted/allowed the rest to have their own "free will" of rejecting him...

 

[Rebel]

The Calvinist believes that God elects "sovereignly, that is all things are predetermined beforehand by absolute decree.
I believe that according to his omniscience, God already knowing what man in his free will, will choose, elects those who choose salvation to the many blessings that they inherit from salvation. Election and predestination are always directed toward the blessings the believers receive from salvation.

They are never used in the sense that some are elected for salvation and the rest are damned to be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire (reprobation).
I do not find such abhorrent teaching in the Bible.

I agree with you 100%.

BTW, guess what other religion teaches that "all things are predetermined beforehand by absolute decree".

 

[DHK]

Regardless, God is the Author and Finisher/Perfector of our faith.

Even as Romans 10:17 plainly states, 'faith comes by hearing', it shows an external Stimuli, not internal, at work. Faith comes by hearing and not from within a person...

So, where does the faith come from that a little child has that Jesus referred to, that you must have. Their faith was not in Christ. It no doubt was in their parents. But is was from within themselves. It was innate. It was simple faith. What is important is the object of the faith not the source of the faith. The object of the child's faith is their parents (earthly father) the object of the faith of one coming to Christ must be in the heavenly Father or more precisely in the Christ who paid the penalty for His sin.
God does not give the unregenerate the faith to believe. That doctrine is absurd and not found in the Bible.

 

[DHK]

Neither do all calvinists though!

Reprobation is exactly what Calvin believed, as does Piper and MacArthur.

The problem is still that due to the fall of Adam, none of us can even come to Jesus to get saved apart from the working of God in and towards us, and that God freely has chosen to save some of us out for His glory, and permitted/allowed the rest to have their own "free will" of rejecting him...

Cornelius came to Christ apart from "regeneration," and by his own free will.
He did so because he was "seeking God," something that Calvinists deny.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The Calvinist believes that God elects "sovereignly, that is all things are predetermined beforehand by absolute decree.

That is the biblical teaching....Calvinists believe it.

I believe that according to his omniscience,

with no biblical support at all

God already knowing what man in his free will,

wuth no biblical support

will choose

,

man choosing, man centered gospel, dead sinners choosing...without biblical support

elects those who choose salvation

no where found in scripture

They are never used in the sense that some are elected for salvation

a total denial of the biblical faith once delivered to the saints...

and the rest are damned to be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire (reprobation).
I do not find such abhorrent teaching in the Bible.

bible believers do find them there:thumbsup::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

God does not give the unregenerate the faith to believe. That doctrine is absurd and not found in the Bible.

You do not understand the biblical salvation. Everyone in heaven will confess this to be true.

 

[DHK]

DHK

That is the biblical teaching....Calvinists believe it.

I know what they believe, but it is not biblical.

with no biblical support at all

Omniscience? Not biblical? Surely you jest?
2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Psalms 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

wuth no biblical support

See above. David knew that God knew his thoughts. David also made his own decisions. Usually he prayed first. Sometimes he didn't and ended up praying after, as in Psalm 51--a psalm of repentance for the evil choice he made: a direct result of free will.

man choosing, man centered gospel, dead sinners choosing...without biblical support

The gospel is in 1Cor.15:1-4. It is explained in its simplicity and stated "by the which ye are saved." To deny it and call it "man-made" or "man-centered" is your choice.
But it is Biblical. It is Christilogical.

no where found in scripture

Again, you deny the very attributes of God.
Why would you deny that God is all-knowing, omniscient, when He declares that he is.

a total denial of the biblical faith once delivered to the saints...

That we must contend for THE faith is that faith, the gospel, the message that is recorded in the Word of God, not the mystical metaphysical regeneration of the Calvinist that isn't in the Word of God.

bible believers do find them there

No they don't. The doctrine of reprobation is not a biblical doctrine.

 

[DHK]

DHK

You do not understand the biblical salvation. Everyone in heaven will confess this to be true.

Next thing you will be telling me is that you have already been there and back and have personally confirmed it with Christ and his angels.
Is this true?

 

[Protestant]

Protestant wrote:

I have in previous posts asked you to examine the reason why you believe on Christ while many members of your family are still enslaved in Catholicism.

And I have answered that question. I believed and they didn't.

Can the unbiased reader discern the many implications of his answer?

1. It was what he did that made the difference.

We, on the other hand, understand that we believe only because of what God did.

We praise God for giving us faithless sinners the undeserved gift of faith; while DHK believes he was born a sinner with latent faith who needed no faith gift from God.

He merely needed to somehow, by his own power and ingenuity, cause his innate faith to flow forth like a waterfall from a rock.

Would that he could share with the world how he accomplished such a godly miracle.

Perhaps more latent faith-filled sinners would be saved by such knowledge.

2. DHK discounts as irrelevant the innumerable Scriptures depicting the helpless and hopeless condition of the unregenerate.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

But DHK had hope. His innate faith was his hope.

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (NASB)

But DHK was not helpless. His innate faith was his help.

3. Though Jesus and the Apostles compare our spiritually dead condition to that of the bodily dead, DHK knows better.

It simply means ‘separation.’ Not a great separation, for the faith he was born with was sufficient to bridge the gap.

In his theological system the separation between filthy sinner and holy God is easily bridged by the sinner’s natural born faith.

He is living proof.

4. Though Jesus and the Apostles compare the sinner’s helpless and hopeless condition to that of a man born blind, unable to see the Sun of Righteousness, DHK’s infirmity was as debilitating as one wearing sunglasses at night.

The list of impenetrable impediments which work against sinners coming to saving faith in Christ is almost inexhaustible.

Needless to say, Pelagian, Arminian, non-Cal, and Synergist faith is quite different from ours.

Despite the sincere claims by DHK that 'all men have faith', the Bible tells us ‘not all have faith.’ (2 Thess. 2:3)

We prefer being gifted with ‘the faith of the Elect.’ (Titus 1:1)

For that is the faith that saves.

 

[Iconoclast]

Protestant wrote:




Can the unbiased reader discern the many implications of his answer?

1. It was what he did that made the difference.

We, on the other hand, understand that we believe only because of what God did.

We praise God for giving us faithless sinners the undeserved gift of faith; while DHK believes he was born a sinner with latent faith who needed no faith gift from God.

He merely needed to somehow, by his own power and ingenuity, cause his innate faith to flow forth like a waterfall from a rock.

Would that he could share with the world how he accomplished such a godly miracle.

Perhaps more latent faith-filled sinners would be saved by such knowledge.

2. DHK discounts as irrelevant the innumerable Scriptures depicting the helpless and hopeless condition of the unregenerate.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

But DHK had hope. His innate faith was his hope.

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (NASB)

But DHK was not helpless. His innate faith was his help.

3. Though Jesus and the Apostles compare our spiritually dead condition to that of the bodily dead, DHK knows better.

It simply means ‘separation.’ Not a great separation, for the faith he was born with was sufficient to bridge the gap.

In his theological system the separation between filthy sinner and holy God is easily bridged by the sinner’s natural born faith.

He is living proof.

4. Though Jesus and the Apostles compare the sinner’s helpless and hopeless condition to that of a man born blind, unable to see the Sun of Righteousness, DHK’s infirmity was as debilitating as one wearing sunglasses at night.

The list of impenetrable impediments which work against sinners coming to saving faith in Christ, is almost inexhaustible.

Needless to say, Pelagian, Arminian, non-Cal, and Synergist faith is quite different from ours.

Despite the sincere claims by DHK that 'all men have faith', the Bible tells us ‘not all have faith.’ (2 Thess. 2:3)

We prefer being gifted with ‘the faith of the Elect.’ (Titus 1:1)

For that is the faith that saves.

We have read the same thing....everyone has.It is clear he lacks understanding. That is not a crime...but slandering us is sad.

 

[Iconoclast]

Omniscience? Not biblical? Surely you jest?

I did not say omniscience is unbiblical. Your understanding and use of it is.
God loves His elect before they did anything.....He does not

The gospel is in 1Cor.15:1-4. It is explained in its simplicity and stated "by the which ye are saved." To deny it and call it "man-made" or "man-centered" is your choice.

the historical facts of the gospel are in 1 cor 15...the part you ignore and do not understand in reality is...the part where it says
'according to the scriptures"...it is now obvious that you are yet without understanding

Again, you deny the very attributes of God.
Why would you deny that God is all-knowing, omniscient, when He declares that he is.

I and other cals do not deny any of this.

The doctrine of reprobation is not a biblical doctrine.

of course not:laugh::laugh:
30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
:laugh:

 

[Protestant]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God loves all men. God sends no one to hell.
Those who end up in hell go there because they reject Christ.

God loves all men?

God loves the Antichrist, false prophets and those who take the Mark of the Beast?

God loves those who have never heard the name of Christ and will die in their sins?

He has a strange way of showing His love when He throws them into the Lake of Fire.

You never answered the question: Does God love those who are currently being tormented in Hell?

God sends no one to hell?

Sure He does: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

In fact, Jesus holds the keys to Hell.

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

No one goes to Hell without His say-so.

“Those who end up in hell go there because they reject Christ.”

Actually it goes much deeper than that.

There will be many who profess Jesus as Lord and Savior who will go to Hell. Their faith did not save them. They had carnal faith.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Have you never wondered why it is Christ says, ‘I never knew you.’

Why will He not say, ‘You never knew me.’

I await your response.

 

[Iconoclast]

God loves all men?

God loves the Antichrist, false prophets and those who take the Mark of the Beast?

God loves those who have never heard the name of Christ and will die in their sins?

He has a strange way of showing His love when He throws them into the Lake of Fire.

You never answered the question: Does God love those who are currently being tormented in Hell?

God sends no one to hell?

Sure He does: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

In fact, Jesus holds the keys to Hell.

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

No one goes to Hell without His say-so.

“Those who end up in hell go there because they reject Christ.”

Actually it goes much deeper than that.

There will be many who profess Jesus as Lord and Savior who will go to Hell. Their faith did not save them. They had carnal faith.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Have you never wondered why it is Christ says, ‘I never knew you.’

Why will He not say, ‘You never knew me.’

I await your response.

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

 

[Protestant]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God loves all men.

Alas, when placed in context with other Scriptures (comparing Scripture with Scripture) the discerning Bible student comes to a radically different conclusion.

To prove my point I will use the following Scripture:

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine………
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Here is your dilemma: God so loves the world, yet Jesus does not pray for the world.

Jesus is our Mediator, our High Priest. He is praying for only those given Him by the Father. He is praying for their salvation….that they would be with Him in Heaven.

His next prayer is upon the cross asking the Father to forgive those same ones for whom He is offering Himself as a propitiation for their Hell-deserving sins.

The prayers of Jesus are effectual. His Father always hears and answers His prayers. He says and prays nothing but what is the will of the Father. (I can give scriptural citations, if you wish.)

No one comes to the Father but through Christ the Mediator, the Door.

I now ask, What love is this that God the Son does not pray for every person ever born since, according to your theology, God loves everyone?

Do you not realize that without Christ’s prayers the sinner has no possibility of salvation?

Christ is our Advocate, the only One with whom the Father is well pleased.

What advocate has the sinner if Christ does not pray for him?

The answer: none.

Conclusion: It is neither possible nor scriptural that God loves all men.

For your definition of love strips it of its very essence: the salvation of the hopeless and helpless due to the undeserving grace of God given to those of His free choosing.

 

[The American Dream]

Alas, when placed in context with other Scriptures (comparing Scripture with Scripture) the discerning Bible student comes to a radically different conclusion.

To prove my point I will use the following Scripture:

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine………
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

Here is your dilemma: God so loves the world, yet Jesus does not pray for the world.

Jesus is our Mediator, our High Priest. He is praying for only those given Him by the Father. He is praying for their salvation….that they would be with Him in Heaven.

His next prayer is upon the cross asking the Father to forgive those same ones for whom He is offering Himself as a propitiation for their Hell-deserving sins.

The prayers of Jesus are effectual. His Father always hears and answers His prayers. He says and prays nothing but what is the will of the Father. (I can give scriptural citations, if you wish.)

No one comes to the Father but through Christ the Mediator, the Door.

I now ask, What love is this that God the Son does not pray for every person ever born since, according to your theology, God loves everyone?

Do you not realize that without Christ’s prayers the sinner has no possibility of salvation?

Christ is our Advocate, the only One with whom the Father is well pleased.

What advocate has the sinner if Christ does not pray for him?

The answer: none.

Conclusion: It is neither possible nor scriptural that God loves all men.

For your definition of love strips it of its very essence: the salvation of the hopeless and helpless due to the undeserving grace of God given to those of His free choosing.

Excellent post Protestant, you have a very clear insight into the issue. One thing that strikes me as the other side forgetting is that Scripture does not contradict Scripture. The salvation of Paul and Christ's prayer to the Father the night before He was crucified should make it clear to anyone, ie "keeping all those You have given Me...." I think several times the free will side was asked for their definition of elect or election. From the posts, I would say a very good definition is to them, election is voting for yourself. The question has also been asked, and these are all straw man questions, is how does a person who believes in sovereignty know that he or she is elected? It is called the Holy Spirit. Another point they fail to address is, if you have the ability to choose within yourself the point of salvation, how come you cannot choose to abandon it?

One thing that really irked me, and I did several posts on this, is the outrageous claim that Calvinists are all hyper Calvinists, that is, they don't believe in missions, and that we believe in predestined for hell. That shows a total lack of understanding. People go to hell because they die in their sins without Jesus Christ, not because they were predestined to go there. Again, another straw man, but this one borders on lets say grievous error to be nice.

As far as their John 3:16 argument ad nauseam, whosoever is not going to believe unless given the ability to.

At the fall, man was not left with a half perfect and half sinful nature. What does Romans 3:10 say? How can one read Romans 1 and find one bit of evidence that saving faith exists in a flawed, sinful human being?

Protestant I have no idea what you do for a living, but it amazes me if you are something other than a called leader of the Christian faith, you can run theological circles around someone who does this stuff for a living and has been to seminary. You have successfully shown solid theology in your posts and exposed the others as a theory built on smoke and mirrors.

 

[steaver]

Hey guys, this thread will be closing soon. I know you all been tied up here, but I am looking forward to your arguments against your position in my new thread.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=98534

See ya there...:wavey:

 

[Protestant]

Excellent post Protestant, you have a very clear insight into the issue. One thing that strikes me as the other side forgetting is that Scripture does not contradict Scripture. The salvation of Paul and Christ's prayer to the Father the night before He was crucified should make it clear to anyone, ie "keeping all those You have given Me...." I think several times the free will side was asked for their definition of elect or election. From the posts, I would say a very good definition is to them, election is voting for yourself. The question has also been asked, and these are all straw man questions, is how does a person who believes in sovereignty know that he or she is elected? It is called the Holy Spirit. Another point they fail to address is, if you have the ability to choose within yourself the point of salvation, how come you cannot choose to abandon it?

One thing that really irked me, and I did several posts on this, is the outrageous claim that Calvinists are all hyper Calvinists, that is, they don't believe in missions, and that we believe in predestined for hell. That shows a total lack of understanding. People go to hell because they die in their sins without Jesus Christ, not because they were predestined to go there. Again, another straw man, but this one borders on lets say grievous error to be nice.

As far as their John 3:16 argument ad nauseam, whosoever is not going to believe unless given the ability to.

At the fall, man was not left with a half perfect and half sinful nature. What does Romans 3:10 say? How can one read Romans 1 and find one bit of evidence that saving faith exists in a flawed, sinful human being?

Protestant I have no idea what you do for a living, but it amazes me if you are something other than a called leader of the Christian faith, you can run theological circles around someone who does this stuff for a living and has been to seminary. You have successfully shown solid theology in your posts and exposed the others as a theory built on smoke and mirrors.

To God be the glory that you have been blessed to ‘see behind the scenes.'

For that is what the mystery of our Election is all about: a 'behind the scenes' look at how we were saved.

My background is the Hollywood Entertainment Industry (TV and music). I'm now retired.

As such I thoroughly enjoy viewing documentaries which give a ‘behind the scenes' look at how a feature film was made.

The Making of Jaws was great fun to see how, exactly, they put that masterpiece together. Netflix has a multi-document series on the Beatles with much footage of them in the recording studio. I love watching the creative process. It’s the next best thing for me, if I can’t be the one creating.

Our non-Cal friends find it hard to distinguish between the preaching of the Gospel and the ‘behind the scenes' look at salvation concerning which our Lord desires we Christians rightly understand.

But to rightly understand the 'behind the scenes' view of Election one must begin from God's perspective.

To do that one must rightly understand God.

Our duty is to preach Christ crucified. We know that if any are saved, it is not due to our oratory skills (as was exemplified by Paul’s honest admission), but rather due to God’s Spirit working faith in the newly regenerated heart of the sinner.

It is those whom God has loved with an everlasting love.

It is those for whom Christ prays.

It is those whom the Lord will not lose, not one.

The truths held by the doctrines of grace run counter to the natural mind.

But with diligent study and the grace of God in the Holy Spirit all Christians should at least be able to grasp the fact that their reconciliation with our holy and righteous God, whereby they are accepted in the Beloved, is an incomprehensible miracle of grace…..considering we had nothing whatsoever to offer God or deserve His favor.

Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words.

I am a nobody who loves the Lord and His Word.

He set me free. I owe Him everything.

It is hard for me to ‘stand still’ in silence when both the honor, grace and truth of our Lord is stained.

I also understand that our non-Cal friends are very sincere and quite zealous.

I pray that they would continue to seek the Lord to discover what is so great a salvation they really have.

Blessings in Christ, my friend.

PS I also pray God's infinite grace for Tom Butler and family.

 

[The American Dream]

To God be the glory that you have been blessed to ‘see behind the scenes.'

For that is what the mystery of our Election is all about: a 'behind the scenes' look at how we were saved.

My background is the Hollywood Entertainment Industry (TV and music). I'm now retired.

As such I thoroughly enjoy viewing documentaries which give a ‘behind the scenes' look at how a feature film was made.

The Making of Jaws was great fun to see how, exactly, they put that masterpiece together. Netflix has a multi-document series on the Beatles with much footage of them in the recording studio. I love watching the creative process. It’s the next best thing for me, if I can’t be the one creating.

Our non-Cal friends find it hard to distinguish between the preaching of the Gospel and the ‘behind the scenes' look at salvation concerning which our Lord desires we Christians rightly understand.

But to rightly understand the 'behind the scenes' view of Election one must begin from God's perspective.

To do that one must rightly understand God.

Our duty is to preach Christ crucified. We know that if any are saved, it is not due to our oratory skills (as was exemplified by Paul’s honest admission), but rather due to God’s Spirit working faith in the newly regenerated heart of the sinner.

It is those whom God has loved with an everlasting love.

It is those for whom Christ prays.

It is those whom the Lord will not lose, not one.

The truths held by the doctrines of grace run counter to the natural mind.

But with diligent study and the grace of God in the Holy Spirit all Christians should at least be able to grasp the fact that their reconciliation with our holy and righteous God, whereby they are accepted in the Beloved, is an incomprehensible miracle of grace…..considering we had nothing whatsoever to offer God or deserve His favor.

Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words.

I am a nobody who loves the Lord and His Word.

He set me free. I owe Him everything.

It is hard for me to ‘stand still’ in silence when both the honor, grace and truth of our Lord is stained.

I also understand that our non-Cal friends are very sincere and quite zealous.

I pray that they would continue to seek the Lord to discover what is so great a salvation they really have.

Blessings in Christ, my friend.

PS I also pray God's infinite grace for Tom Butler and family.

Impressive career. I was an electronics tech and network person but am also retired. You know for some reason this issue brings out the fangs. Just because we do not understand how sovereignty works with our limited free will dies not mean there is a conflict. God created the process so it works fine. Thanks for your prayers.