A Text for the Calvinist

[Yeshua1]

The Calvinistic glasses here frame the "sheep" as an elected-unto-salvation group of men from eternity past.
All that sheep are, are men who have a love of truth/the words of God.
When Christ says ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep (Jn.10:26) it's the equivalent of a Christian answering a Mormon who's claiming to be a Christian but rejects the deity of Christ with "you believe not because you are not a Christian".

It's that simple, unless you put on Augustine and Calvin's glasses.

Just seeing scriptures thru the lens of jesus, paul, and John!

 

[George Antonios]

Just seeing scriptures thru the lens of jesus, paul, and John!

The sheep are separated from the goats in Matthew 25 based on how they treat the Jews in the tribulation, not based on any past decree.
That's what the words say. You just change their meanings with coloured glasses.

 

[Yeshua1]

The sheep are separated from the goats in Matthew 25 based on how they treat the Jews in the tribulation, not based on any past decree.
That's what the words say. You just change their meanings with coloured glasses.

That refers to nations, not individuals!

 

[canadyjd]

not really. that be saved] Literally, “who are being saved,” i.e. who are in the way of salvation.. The question is "will there many who will be saved" in the final salvation of the lost. There is no evidence from the context that the person who asked the question, was themself saved. We must not read our theology into what the Bible actually says

So, Jesus is talking about how people are saved? He tells them to “strive”. So, as you keep reading the passage you quoted, you find people wanting to be saved, knocking on the door of God to receive that initial salvation, begging God to give them that initial salvation.

God refuses to give salvation to people begging for it. He calls them workers of iniquity.

If your understanding is true, and since everyone is a “worker of iniquity” prior to salvation there can be only one conclusion. Those people whom God refused salvation, even though they begged Him for it, must not have “strived” hard enough. They must not have worked hard enough for God to grant them salvation.

In short, your understanding is a works based salvation where people must “strive” hard enough to please God and then and only then will He grant them salvation.

I think you are wrong.

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

That refers to nations, not individuals!

...

 

[SavedByGrace]

Those people whom God refused salvation

can you provide some Bible verse that teach this?

 

[Dave G]

My authority is from the plain Word of God, the Holy Bible.

As is mine.

I don't presume anything because I don't belong to an camp. the Reformed/Calvinist, etc.

Believe it or not, neither do I.

In fact,
I list myself as a "Baptist" on this forum because I was raised in Independent Baptist churches from the age of 12, when I first believed on Christ during the preaching of the word of God, until 14 years ago when I left the visible churches and decided to wait on God's timing to lead me to a group of God-fearing people who take His words seriously and love the Lord with all their hearts.

I also consider myself a "Baptist" because I hold to most of what are known as "Baptist Distinctives"...

• Biblical authority... The Bible alone is my authority for faith and practice.
• Autonomy of the local church...each local assembly is separate and individual, accountable to the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
• Priesthood of the believer... All born-again believers have the privilege of direct access to God. Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and man. We need no other human agent or spiritual mediator. As God’s priests, we can study His Word, pray for our needs, intercede for others, offer worship, and serve in His work. Every child of God has equal access to their Heavenly Father. There is no "hierarchy" in the body of Christ.
  
• Two ordinances...Baptism by full immersion in water after belief of the Gospel and public confession of said belief, and the "Lord's Supper" or what is commonly called, "communion".
• Individual soul liberty... No person within the membership is coerced to believe anything about the Bible, but freely comes to their beliefs through the teaching of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. Exception: Heresy, the act of trying to divide the church over a false doctrine, is taken seriously; and after the first and second admonition, that person is asked to leave.
  
• Saved and Scripturally baptized members of the local assembly only.
• Two offices... Pastor ( bishop ) and Deacon. Both of whom are chosen by the Holy Ghost and that choice is impressed upon the people collectively.
  
• Separation of church and state...in other words, the local church is not to be influenced or controlled by politics. God established both civil and local church governments. They have distinct responsibilities and operations. Neither should control the other.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not fatalistic my friend, as that would be Allah, not yahweh!

but your theology says just that, as people without a "will" to choose, and no more than machines!

 

[Dave G]

Your reasoning for Acts 13:48 is not contextual, as you disregard the context which includes verse 46, where the actions of the Jews are evidentely self., this would make what the Gentiles did in verse 48, also self, though the Holy Spirit did the inward convicting.

I appreciate your opinion, and I politely disagree.

To me, you are missing the significance of this phrase...
"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Therefore, I see that the reason anyone in that crowd believed, was because it was God's doing.
Otherwise they would have simply thought that the preaching of the cross was foolishness, as all the lost can and do ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

 

[Dave G]

ah, "election to salvation", another red-herring!

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

 

[Dave G]

he Holy Spirit convicts the sinner of their sins and need for forgiveness and Repentance which is in Jesus Christ. the sinner then responds to this conviction by turning to the Lord in repentance (godly sorrow), and believes in the complete finished work of Jesus Christ

Amen.
Now, do you see anywhere that Scripture ever deals with why some believe and why others do not?

How about John 10:26?

 

[AustinC]

so you know more than the Lord Jesus Himself, Who very clearly said that sinners must "REPENT and BELIEVE"? (Mark 1:15)

Always with one verse forming an entire theology. Let's look.

Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Where does Jesus tell us that salvation comes first by repentance and then comes believing? He doesn't say this in Mark 1:15, but certainly you think he is laying out a specific numbered list.

What was the good news that John and Jesus were preaching at the beginning of Jesus ministry?

John's preaching was to repent and believe that salvation was coming. Jesus' preaching was to repent and believe in the salvation that is now here.

The Jews needed to change their ways and believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Mark is therefore not teaching a numbered list of how to be saved in Mark 1:15. Mark is teaching that the Jews needed to turn from their Pharisaic legalism and turn to Messiah, then believe Jesus, not the Pharisees and Sadducees.

If you take time to see the context, you will see this. If you crop out the picture, you will miss the point. You missed the point.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I appreciate you opinion, and I politely disagree.

To me, you are missing the significance of this phrase...
"...and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Therefore, I see that the reason anyone in that crowd believed, was because it was God's doing.
Otherwise they would have simply thought that the preaching of the cross was foolishness, as all the lost can and do ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

"as many" is no problem within the context, as those of the Jews who did not accept the Gospel, and no doubt some of the gentiles also disbelieved. You cannot make any argument of any limitation from the use of this. To be honest, the Greek correlative pronoun used here is, "ὅσος", which also means, "of abundance and multitude", that is a "great number". We cannot build a theology based on the meaning of words alone.

Since you bring up the use of "many", it is worth noting what John Calvin, who is supposed to be the "leader" of those who call themselves, "Calvinists", had to say on Mark 14:24, "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many"

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one"

Many, according to Calvin here used by Jesus Christ at the Lord's Supper, which Luke informs us that Judas was still present at the table, when Jesus gave the bread and wine; is not to be limited to "a part of the world only, but the whole human race". That is "EVERYONE" without exception", which are Calvin's words on John 3:16! It is a real shame that those who use the name of Calvin for their theology, do not actually follow his teachings!

 

[Dave G]

The sheep are separated from the goats in Matthew 25 based on how they treat the Jews in the tribulation, not based on any past decree.
That's what the words say. You just change their meanings with coloured glasses.

George,
Let's see what the "colored glasses" say...

" When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" ( Matthew 25:31-34 )

" Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ( Matthew 25:41 ).

Verse 32: He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Verse 33: He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Verse 34: Then shall the King ( Jesus Christ, the King of Kings ) say to them on His right hand, " Come you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you"...when?
From the foundation of the world.

Who are those that were chosen "in Him" ( Ephesians 1:4 ) from the foundation of the world?
His sheep.
The "whosoever believeth".

Why do they believe?
Because they are His sheep ( John 10:27 ), not the goats.
Because it was given to them to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ) on Christ.
Because they were ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

Why do the goats not believe?
Because they are not "of" His sheep ( John 10:26 ).

The people are separated because they are sheep...
That's what the words say, when all the declarations are taken together, don't they?

 

[Yeshua1]

but your theology says just that, as people without a "will" to choose, and no more than machines!

Lost sinners have the will to always say no to Jesus!

 

[Dave G]

Since you bring up the use of "many", it is worth noting what John Calvin, who is supposed to be the "leader" of those who call themselves, "Calvinists", had to say on Mark 14:24, "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many"

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one"

Many, according to Calvin here used by Jesus Christ at the Lord's Supper, which Luke informs us that Judas was still present at the table, when Jesus gave the bread and wine; is not to be limited to "a part of the world only, but the whole human race". That is "EVERYONE" without exception", which are Calvin's words on John 3:16! It is a real shame that those who use the name of Calvin for their theology, do not actually follow his teachings!

What ever gave you the impression that I follow John Calvin and use His name to describe what I believe?

 

[SavedByGrace]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Another reading as found the Bible versions like the ESV, read, "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

The textual evidence is as follows for both readings:

ἀπαρχὴν] B F G P 075 33 81 256 326 365 1573 1739 1881 1912 2127 2464 itc itdem itdiv itf itx itz vg syrh copbo Ambrose1/2 Didymusdub Pelagius Theodorelat(1/2) Cyril Euthalius John-Damascuscomm CEI TILC

ἀπ' ἀρχῆς] ‭à D K L Ψ 0150 6 104 181 263 330 424 436 451 459 614 629 630 1175 1241 1319 1852 1962 1984 1985 2127 2200 2492 2495 Byz Lect itar itb itd ite itg itmon ito vgms syrp copsa arm eth geo slav Ambrosiaster Ambrose Chrysostom Theodorelat(1/2) Varimadum Theodoret Vigilius John-Damascustext

Too divided to use for any theological purpose.

 

[Dave G]

Another reading as found the Bible versions like the ESV, read

I don't use the ESV or anything even remotely close to it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Lost sinners have the will to always say no to Jesus!

not in my Bible!

 

[Yeshua1]

"as many" is no problem within the context, as those of the Jews who did not accept the Gospel, and no doubt some of the gentiles also disbelieved. You cannot make any argument of any limitation from the use of this. To be honest, the Greek correlative pronoun used here is, "ὅσος", which also means, "of abundance and multitude", that is a "great number". We cannot build a theology based on the meaning of words alone.

Since you bring up the use of "many", it is worth noting what John Calvin, who is supposed to be the "leader" of those who call themselves, "Calvinists", had to say on Mark 14:24, "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many"

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one"

Many, according to Calvin here used by Jesus Christ at the Lord's Supper, which Luke informs us that Judas was still present at the table, when Jesus gave the bread and wine; is not to be limited to "a part of the world only, but the whole human race". That is "EVERYONE" without exception", which are Calvin's words on John 3:16! It is a real shame that those who use the name of Calvin for their theology, do not actually follow his teachings!

Did the Lord make a real and definite salvation on the Cross, or a potential offer to all?