A video of my girls dancing in church...

[tinytim]

More red herrings, and this time coupled with veiled personal attacks.

I can quote Scripture too:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

But that begs the question doesn't it. You still haven't a shred of Biblical evidence, in particular NT evidence, that dancing is an acceptable form of worship for the local church today. Your personal attacks are unnecessary.

So quoting scripture is a personal attack?

I had a preacher one time that said if the scripture steps on your toes, don't blame the messenger, take it up with God.

 

[rbell]

Gotta agree with TT here...I don't see the attack.

 

[DHK]

So quoting scripture is a personal attack?

I had a preacher one time that said if the scripture steps on your toes, don't blame the messenger, take it up with God.

You attacked me for judging and pretended to be spiritual by using Scripture. We all can play the same game. What if I were to put you in the same class as Paul did when he said:

Acts 13:9-10 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
--Are you also a child of the devil as Paul said?
You suggested I am judgmental using the words of Paul?

What about the words of Jesus. I will use them and direct them to you.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--Does it feel nice to have Scripture pointed at you when it is not true?

The fact is that I am not being judgmental. I believe, as I posted, judging "righteously," according to the Word of God, from which I glean Bilblical principles. In all these pages you have yet to give one iota of evidence that dance is an acceptable form of worship for the local church. That is the challenge. It has nothing to do with being judgmental, which is simply a personal attack.

 

[Alive in Christ]

"yet to give one iota of evidence that dance is an acceptable form of worship for the local church."

The evidence has been posted, DHK. Over and over again.

You simply refuse to accept it.


:godisgood:

 

[padredurand]

In all these pages you have yet to give one iota of evidence that dance is an acceptable form of worship for the local church.

DHK, I'm assuming you've done some study in this area - "acceptable form of worship for the local church". Care to share? How about starting a thread for discussion and edification? Post it where us non-Baptists could participate.

 

[tinytim]

The evidence has been posted, DHK. Over and over again.

You simply refuse to accept it.


:godisgood:

Yes.. it has.. but you refuse to accept the OT as proof.

Might as well rip out Genesis to Malachi..
Although God doesn't change.

My proof is in the Bible that God accepts dance.. not going to post it again.. you need to read what has been posted and realize that it is God's inspired word.

David danced.. and tells us to in Psalms...
DHK, if you can't accept that, then I have no other proof.

But you have failed to prove that it is not acceptable to dance.

The burden of proof is on you since this thread was started by a Godly lady that wanted to share with the Christian world her beautiful daughters dancing in worship to God.. and you came on this thread to point out that it is wrong...

You need to provide biblical proof that it is wrong.

 

[DHK]

Yes.. it has.. but you refuse to accept the OT as proof.

Might as well rip out Genesis to Malachi..
Although God doesn't change.

My proof is in the Bible that God accepts dance.. not going to post it again.. you need to read what has been posted and realize that it is God's inspired word.

David danced.. and tells us to in Psalms...
DHK, if you can't accept that, then I have no other proof.

God accepted polygamy in the OT; he doesn't in the NT.
God accepted wholesale slaughter of innocent women and children in the OT; he doesn't in the NT (ex: Jericho, Canaanites)
God accepted prayers of judgement that we would never prayer (imprecatory psalms; Psa. 109:6-20) in the OT; we would not in the NT.
All worship was done through a priestly system (like the RCC) in the OT; we are a priest before God in the NT, and have no need of a priestly system in the NT
Dance in the OT was done in times of military victory only; we also don't have that situation. Neither is there a NT local church in the OT.

Yes, God (though he does not change), his methods change from dispensation to dispensation in the Bible. If not, go out and marry a dozen wives, and in God's permissive will he may accept it. Take an army of men, and under the name of Christ conquer a city, set up the Kingdom of God by force, carnal force. Do it the OT way--If God doesn't change--as you so affirm.

But you have failed to prove that it is not acceptable to dance.

I don't have to prove a negative. I simply have to show you that what is acceptable in the OT, is not necessarily acceptable in the NT, and that I have done. I have also shown you that there is nothing in the NT that warrants the practice of dance as a form of worship, and you have presented no evidence that it is an acceptable form of worship. The onus is on you to demonstrate that it is.

The burden of proof is on you since this thread was started by a Godly lady that wanted to share with the Christian world her beautiful daughters dancing in worship to God.. and you came on this thread to point out that it is wrong...

That is like Benny Hinn affirming that the trinity is a nine-person Godhead (which he does). The onus is not on me to prove to him that it isn't, but rather on him to demonstrate that it is. He is making an outlandish statement and affirms something quite contrary to the Bible's teaching. Demonstrate it. You have done the same thing. You have affirmed something contrary to the Bible's teaching--carnal dancing (and it is carnal--appealing to the senses, not the spiritual side of man), is Biblical. Yet you cannot demonstrate it from the Bible. Illogically you want me to demonstrate it that it isn't. Like the RCC you want me to demonstrate that Purgatory is not found in the Bible, rather than the RCC demonstrate that it is in the Bible. You fail to be logical in your debate.

You need to provide biblical proof that it is wrong.

Read again. You need to provide Biblical proof that it is right. The burden of proof is on you. You are the one making up things and trying to fit them into your mode of unbiblical worship.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

"Dance in the OT was done in times of military victory only;"

Psalm 150...

"Praise the LORD! Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens!
Praise him for his mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent greatness!

Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
Let everything that has breath praise the LORD! Praise the LORD!"

How plain does God have to make it?


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

DHK...



Psalm 150...



How plain does God have to make it?


:godisgood:

How plain does God have to make it. Read Peter Master's commentary on the Book of Psalms here. This psalm is a psalm written after a military victory, when the author was rejoicing for the victory that was won. Furthermore, what does it have to do with worship in the NT local church? I ask you again and again, provide evidence that dance is an acceptable form of worship in the NT local church, and you fail. You revert back to the OT, every time. Why is that?

 

[annsni]

God accepted polygamy in the OT; he doesn't in the NT.
God accepted wholesale slaughter of innocent women and children in the OT; he doesn't in the NT (ex: Jericho, Canaanites)
God accepted prayers of judgement that we would never prayer (imprecatory psalms; Psa. 109:6-20) in the OT; we would not in the NT.
All worship was done through a priestly system (like the RCC) in the OT; we are a priest before God in the NT, and have no need of a priestly system in the NT
Dance in the OT was done in times of military victory only; we also don't have that situation. Neither is there a NT local church in the OT.

Yes, God (though he does not change), his methods change from dispensation to dispensation in the Bible. If not, go out and marry a dozen wives, and in God's permissive will he may accept it. Take an army of men, and under the name of Christ conquer a city, set up the Kingdom of God by force, carnal force. Do it the OT way--If God doesn't change--as you so affirm.

I don't have to prove a negative. I simply have to show you that what is acceptable in the OT, is not necessarily acceptable in the NT, and that I have done. I have also shown you that there is nothing in the NT that warrants the practice of dance as a form of worship, and you have presented no evidence that it is an acceptable form of worship. The onus is on you to demonstrate that it is.

That is like Benny Hinn affirming that the trinity is a nine-person Godhead (which he does). The onus is not on me to prove to him that it isn't, but rather on him to demonstrate that it is. He is making an outlandish statement and affirms something quite contrary to the Bible's teaching. Demonstrate it. You have done the same thing. You have affirmed something contrary to the Bible's teaching--carnal dancing (and it is carnal--appealing to the senses, not the spiritual side of man), is Biblical. Yet you cannot demonstrate it from the Bible. Illogically you want me to demonstrate it that it isn't. Like the RCC you want me to demonstrate that Purgatory is not found in the Bible, rather than the RCC demonstrate that it is in the Bible. You fail to be logical in your debate.

Read again. You need to provide Biblical proof that it is right. The burden of proof is on you. You are the one making up things and trying to fit them into your mode of unbiblical worship.

God commanded specific people to slaughter the innocents. It was a direct order.

God never ordered man to marry more than one wife.

God has told us to praise Him with loud instruments and dancing. It was not to a specific person like David - but to all.

If you do not think we are in a war, then I think you are sadly mistaken. We are absolutely in a war - a spiritual war. To praise God for His victories daily is not only acceptable but commanded. Psalm 150 is clear on that.

 

[DHK]

God commanded specific people to slaughter the innocents. It was a direct order.

This is pick and choose time, right? You get to pick some parts of the OT that are appealing to you, and ignore those things that are not appealing to you.

God never ordered man to marry more than one wife.

No he didn't. He never orders man to marry in this dispensation either. If a man wants to stay single he has the perfect right to do so. The fact is that God said to David (after he had sinned), "if you had desired more wives, I would have given you more." In his permissive will he would have allowed (and eventually did) David to have many more wives. If the OT is good enough in one area, then why isn't it good enough in other areas? You are inconsistent. You just want to pick and choose according to your own emotions. You do not rightly divide the word of truth.

God has told us to praise Him with loud instruments and dancing. It was not to a specific person like David - but to all.

You are wrong. God told Israel not us, to praise Him with loud instruments and dancing. There are certain applications we can make from the psalms, but not all. As I posted before, will you pray the same imprecatory psalm that the psamist prayed, or will you continue your pick and choose kick, of "some of the OT I want to do, and some I don't." You do not rightly divide the word of truth. What is wrong with this prayer as opposed to Psalm 150:

Psalms 109:6-19 Set a wicked man over him. Let an adversary stand at his right hand. When he is judged, let him come forth guilty. Let his prayer be turned into sin. Let his days be few. Let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, And his wife a widow. Let his children be wandering beggars. Let them be sought from their ruins. Let the creditor seize all that he has. Let strangers plunder the fruit of his labor. Let there be none to extend kindness to him, Neither let there be any to have pity on his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off. In the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered by Yahweh. Don't let the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before Yahweh continually, That he may cut off the memory of them from the earth; Because he didn't remember to show kindness, But persecuted the poor and needy man, The broken in heart, to kill them. Yes, he loved cursing, and it came to him. He didn't delight in blessing, and it was far from him. He clothed himself also with cursing as with his garment. It came into his inward parts like water, Like oil into his bones. Let it be to him as the clothing with which he covers himself, For the belt that is always around him.

Why not pray that Psalm? Isn't it Biblical? It too is in the Bible. It too is a prayer. But you are proud that you get to pick and choose, pick and choose, according to your own sentiments and feel-good theology. Sorry, but that doesn't work for me. Stick to NT theology, and show from the NT how dance is an acceptable form of worship in the NT local church.

If you do not think we are in a war, then I think you are sadly mistaken. We are absolutely in a war - a spiritual war. To praise God for His victories daily is not only acceptable but commanded. Psalm 150 is clear on that.

I never said we were not in a spiritual war.
I said we are not in a carnal war. Read 2Cor.10:3-5. The weapons of are warfare are not carnal. But they were in the OT. If you are going to go to the OT for your proof, then be consistent in your application and use carnal weapons. You don't rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

"This psalm is a psalm written after a military victory, when the author was rejoicing for the victory that was won."

As Annsni just posted, we as Christians have been in a spiritual war ever since the time of Christ.

We celebrate a "victory that was won" together every time we gather as christians.

Satan was defeated utterly and completely on the cross of Calvary.

In adition, every time a lost person is saved, a lukewarn christian is revived, or a redeemed one passes on into glory...a victory is won over Satan.

"Furthermore, what does it have to do with worship in the NT local church?"

Its been made very clear for you how that relates to worship in a NT church.


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

DHK,



As Annsni just posted, we as Christians have been in a spiritual war ever since the time of Christ.

We celebrate a "victory that was won" together every time we gather as christians.

Satan was defeated utterly and completely on the cross of Calvary.

In adition, every time a lost person is saved, a lukewarn christian is revived, or a redeemed one passes on into glory...a victory is won over Satan.



Its been made very clear for you how that relates to worship in a NT church.


:godisgood:

No it hasn't. It is taken out of its context. Why don't you pray Psalm 109:6-19 as well, if Psalm 150 is acceptable for you?

 

[padredurand]

No it hasn't. It is taken out of its context. Why don't you pray Psalm 109:6-19 as well, if Psalm 150 is acceptable for you?

Why just verses 6-19? Why not the ones that precede them...

<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue. They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause. For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer. And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Psalms 109:1-5 KJV

...or why not the balance of the Psalm...

Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul. But do thou for me, O GOD the Lord, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me. For I am poor and needy, and my heart is wounded within me. I am gone like the shadow when it declineth: I am tossed up and down as the locust. My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness. I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads. Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy: That they may know that this is thy hand; that thou, LORD, hast done it. Let them curse, but bless thou: when they arise, let them be ashamed; but let thy servant rejoice. Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle. I will greatly praise the LORD with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude. For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.
Psalms 109:20-31 KJV

Context! :wavey:

 

[tinytim]

You are wrong. God told Israel not us,

I just want to make sure I am reading you right.. you seperate the promises to Israel from the Church?

Although Paul says...

Galatians 3:6-29
(6) just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
(7) Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
(8) And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
(9) So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
(10) For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
(11) Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
(12) But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."
(13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"--
(14) so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
(15) To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
(16) Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.
(17) This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
(18) For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
(19) Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
(20) Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
(21) Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
(22) But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
(23) Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
(24) So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
(26) for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

It seems clear that God doesn't seperate the church from Israel, we are grafted in to Israel and have received what Israel is to receive.
So then when God tells Israel to dance.. why do you want to say that's not for the church, but only for Israel? You are trying to ungraft what Christ has grafted.

Psalms applies to us today..
Or do you propose to not apply the 23rd psalm as well?

See also

Romans 4:16
(16) That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

"Why don't you pray Psalm 109:6-19 as well, if Psalm 150 is acceptable for you?"

Psalm 109 is wonderful. But why did you stop at verse 19?

Keep reading...

"20 Let this be the LORD’s reward to my accusers,
And to those who speak evil against my person.

21 But You, O GOD the Lord,
Deal with me for Your name’s sake;
Because Your mercy is good, deliver me.
22 For I am poor and needy,
And my heart is wounded within me.
23 I am gone like a shadow when it lengthens;
I am shaken off like a locust.
24 My knees are weak through fasting,
And my flesh is feeble from lack of fatness.
25 I also have become a reproach to them;
When they look at me, they shake their heads.

26 Help me, O LORD my God!
Oh, save me according to Your mercy,
27 That they may know that this is Your hand—
That You, LORD, have done it!
28 Let them curse, but You bless;
When they arise, let them be ashamed,
But let Your servant rejoice.
29 Let my accusers be clothed with shame,
And let them cover themselves with their own disgrace as with a mantle.

30 I will greatly praise the LORD with my mouth;
Yes, I will praise Him among the multitude.
31 For He shall stand at the right hand of the poor,
To save him from those who condemn him."

It ends in victory. At that point, giving praise with dance would be appropriate.

Just like the victories we have in our Spiritual "warfare".


:godisgood:

 

[annsni]

No it hasn't. It is taken out of its context. Why don't you pray Psalm 109:6-19 as well, if Psalm 150 is acceptable for you?

Since that is a personal prayer TO God, we don't need to pray that prayer (although I have to admit that I've wanted to at times).

Psalm 150 is not a prayer but a directive. Different animal completely.

Oh - and if you don't realize it, we are Israel. All those who have been grafted into the Vine are Israel (Romans 9).

 

[tinytim]

Wow.. Ann, you and I are on the same wavelenght....that is scary!!! lol

 

[tinytim]

I probably should bow out of this.. it is clear that I am not going to change my mind and DHK is the same way..

Praise God.. Praise God.. Praise God..

 

[annsni]

Wow.. Ann, you and I are on the same wavelenght....that is scary!!! lol

Great minds, Tim. Great minds.