A video of my girls dancing in church...

[Aaron]

And some Baptists are accusers of the brethren, and are more like Satan than Christ.

Still waiting for someone to make the case that what we saw in the video is an acceptable form of worship.

 

[Aaron]

So you saying God changed? And what was once acceptable to God is no longer tolerated?

No. God never accepted it. He winked at it as we would the antics of a toddler.

Do you have scripture that clearly identifies this change in God praise expectation?

John 4;23

Last I knew, as long as what we do is in spirit and in truth then our praise will be worthy.

That's what we're discussing. Can you make the case that what is in the video is "in spirit and in truth," or "decently and in order?"

 

[Aaron]

As for those who say that we don't pull heads off of pigeons and such anymore, you're right. But none of that was done in worship but in sacrifice.

Sacrifice was worship. Burnt offerings, meat offerings and peace offerings were not offered for sin. They were offered as worship.

Instead of taking your premises to the Scriptures, allow the Scriptures to form your premises.

 

[DHK]

Is that what I'm missing, this is a legalistic view? I thought it was the opposite and we were being accused of being legalistic because we worshiped as they did in the OT (with instruments and dance of the spirit so moves). When did God change aspects of worship?

This has nothing to do with legalism. Legalism is a word tossed around with a lot of ignorance attached to it.
First and foremost, no one has questioned the salvation of those girls that danced, their parents, or for that matter anyone else that I know of. So why bring salvation into the discussion? This is what you have done--immediately, as soon as you mention the word legalism.
As the Judaizers tried to make circumcision and the law requirements for salvation, so legalists try and add on to the requirements of salvation. Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
For example, the COC states that salvation is by faith plus baptism (baptismal regeneration). They have become legalistic. They are adding to the requirements of salvation. That is legalism. Adding to salvation; requiring more than what is necessary to be saved.

No one has even suggested that on this thread. If you don't know the meaning of the word, don't use it.

 

[gb93433]

I totally agree with you.
I drive my car to the glory of the Lord.
But I don't drive my car through the church building or through the congregation of the church. Are you suggesting that I do? It seems like you are!

If God would want you to drive your car through the building then by all means do it. Perhaps there are churches which would benefit from that much like Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple.

Personally I would find it hard to see how that kind of thing would edify the body.

 

[gb93433]

Still waiting for someone to make the case that what we saw in the video is an acceptable form of worship.

You have read it many times. However one who refuses to listen just keeps getting harder and harder like concrete as it cures and gets harder.

 

[LeBuick]

Let's get this straight. The Holy Spirit is not simply a vague influence, something like a tingly feeling or static electricity. The Holy Spirit is a Person, the third Person of the Triune Godhead. Let's not demean Him in any way.
Being God, God would not do anything contrary to his nature.
What does the Bible say about God? God is a God of order, and not of chaos.

So now you are making yourself the singular person understanding God's nature? Are you saying God can't or won't do what I suggested he could? You saying the Holy Spirit can't or has never manifest Himself as a tingly feeling or static electricity? Why do you limit God so? Why do you feel God has to fit this predefined template? Does your God have to be so predictable?

What else does the Bible say about God, he is worthy of ALL praise and wants it in spirit and in truth and not according to DHK. Millions of Christians have worshiped in faith for centuries and God has been there all the time.

Thus when you say: "Don't limit the actions of the 'spirit'", you demean God, and are inferring that He would go contrary to His own nature.
Let me assure you that God would never direct me to drive a car through a church building or put the lives of his children in danger by driving it through an assembly of believers. To say that putting limits on God and suggesting that God would direct in that way is foolishness.

There you go again, how about if He has you drive the car through the Church despite the children and none of them are hurt? You ARE putting limits on God and make as if you're the only life on earth who has a right relation with God. You're going to be very surprised when you see the number of folks in heaven.

but I can't drive it in the middle of a worship service. There is a time and place for everything. I don't believe dance ought to be done in the service of the church, neither do we have any Scriptural precedent for it. Where is the Scripture to back up this kind of activity.

Those are your beliefs and you are entitled to them. That doesn't make the rest of us wrong or heretics because we believe and worship differently. I believe God is moved by your worship just as he is moved by the way we worship.

I will caution that you seem to approach works based salvation when you feel worthy of God grace because of things you do or don't do (no instruments). God's presence is not in worship because you don't have instruments or dance, he is there because believers hearts are gathered together in spirit and in truth...

Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[LeBuick]

No. God never accepted it. He winked at it as we would the antics of a toddler.

I don't recall this being in Samuel. Did you add this part or are you taking this from Mars Hill?

John 4;23

That's what we're discussing. Can you make the case that what is in the video is "in spirit and in truth," or "decently and in order?"

If I understand your implication, I believe this passage is about resembling God in our worship. God is a spirit so we need to understand that he isn't concerned with the movement of our bodies or sounds coming into our ears, he is concerned about the focus and purity of our spirit while we worship (and all times). If you move your body in dance with your spirit focused purely on God then your dance is in the spirit and is worthy.

As for instruments, if God allows instruments in heaven, why would he not allow them on earth?

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[LeBuick]

This has nothing to do with legalism. Legalism is a word tossed around with a lot of ignorance attached to it.
First and foremost, no one has questioned the salvation of those girls that danced, their parents, or for that matter anyone else that I know of.

Then I don't understand why you object to dancing....

I apologize if I misunderstood your view as being salvation is only to those who worship as you do. It sounded like you were saying your worship as you do to be saved which is the same is being under the law (I obey the law to be saved instead of I obey the law because I am saved).

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

"What does the Bible say about God? God is a God of order, and not of chaos."

You mean like the day of Pentecost? When they were accused of being drunk?

Or the riots that sometimes occured when Paul preached?

Or the commotions and anger and "gnashing of teeth" that occured sometimes when Christ preached?

Or when David danced "with all his might"?

God was not involved in all of those events?






Or did God AUTHOR those events?


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

I will caution that you seem to approach works based salvation when you feel worthy of God grace because of things you do or don't do (no instruments). God's presence is not in worship because you don't have instruments or dance, he is there because believers hearts are gathered together in spirit and in truth...

As a moderator, I will caution you about this.
This is a serious accusation.
We are discussing "girls dancing in church." See OP.
When you question someone's salvation you have broken the rules of BB.
I have just stated in a previous post that no one's salvation was ever in question.
Your statement concerning me believing in a works-based salvation is false, out-of-line, and should be reported to other moderators. Questioning one's salvation is not permitted.
That is a warning.
Next time it goes to the administration.
I don't put up with that nonsense.

 

[DHK]

DHK...

You mean like the day of Pentecost? When they were accused of being drunk?

Or the riots that sometimes occured when Paul preached?

Or the commotions and anger and "gnashing of teeth" that occured sometimes when Christ preached?

Or when David danced "with all his might"?

God was not involved in all of those events?

Or did God AUTHOR those events?

God will also author the events pertaining to the Great White Throne Judgement (Rev.20:10-15).
God also authored the rain of fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah.
God also authored the slaughter of the Canaanites.
God also orchestrated the events that would lead to the hanging of Absalom by his own hair caught in a thicket or a tree.

Thus, according to you, because events are authored or orchestrated by God, we can do the same things in our own services in our own churches. Is this your brand of theology?

Do you know what the Pastoral Epistles are? Do you know what their purpose is?

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

1) You are either missing my point, or dodging it.

This is not complicated. You clearly indicated that God would not approve of dancing as worship because God is not the author of "chaos", but rather order.

I then showed you 4 of the many examples of where God authored chaos and/or confusion.


2) Yes, I know what the pastoral epistles are.

3) Yes, I know what their purpose is.


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

DHK,

1) You are either missing my point, or dodging it.

This is not complicated. You clearly indicated that God would not approve of dancing as worship because God is not the author of "chaos", but rather order.

I then showed you 4 of the many examples of where God authored chaos and/or confusion.

Are you trying to show your unbelief in the Bible. That is the only point I am getting from you. Look at Scripture.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
--The application is to "all the churches of the saints." All of them, including yours.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
--Same chapter; same application.

You are trying to tell me that God is a God of confusion when the Bible declares He is not. Keep in context the local church.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

"1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
--The application is to "all the churches of the saints." All of them, including yours. "

I know.

Now....exactly where is the "confusion" that took place as Annsni's girls did their dancing during the worship service?

(maybe you could give us the time...such as "from the 2:56 mark to the 5:18 mark.)

Please explain to us all what was so dangerous and "confusing" in what those girls did?

"1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
--Same chapter; same application."

Please explain to us all how what those girls did was...

1) Indecent.

3) Out of order

Looking forward to you explanations.


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

DHK...
I know.

Now....exactly where is the "confusion" that took place as Annsni's girls did their dancing during the worship service?

(maybe you could give us the time...such as "from the 2:56 mark to the 5:18 mark.)

Please explain to us all what was so dangerous and "confusing" in what those girls did?

There is nothing "indecent" about driving a car. But to do it doing the church service is not the time nor the place. The same could be said about thousands of other activities: sports, hobbies, etc.

What is the purpose of the local church?
What is the purpose of music in the local church.
Music in the Bible is never used for entertainment, never.
The only place it is used for entertainment is in ungodly situations such as the Israelites dancing naked around the golden calf. Is that your precedent?

What was the purpose of the local church?

Acts 2:41-42 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Note the pattern:
1. First they were saved and then baptized.
2. Then they continued in the apostles teaching (doctrine). That is put first for it was the most important.
3. Next was fellowship--another purpose of the local church.
4. Then in the second ordinance (first baptism), the Lord's Supper.
5. Then they continued in prayer.

The early church continued with this pattern, and these were the most important things as they grew. In Acts 8, when they were persecuted they went everywhere preaching the gospel. In Acts 6, "deacons" were appointed so that the apostles could give themselves "to the word and to prayer."

Notice how relatively unimportant music is in the early church. It was there, but not prominent. What is totally absent is instruments. It is difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to make a case for the use of instruments in the early church. Historically, the church did not accept instruments in the churches until after the Reformation. Neither Spurgeon nor Wesley accepted them.
They would not accept any thing that even resembled entertainment. Dancing would have been entirely out of the question. You cannot demonstrate that this is proper in the churches on two fronts:
1. Historically.
2. Biblically.
But you can try.

 

[LeBuick]

As a moderator, I will caution you about this.
This is a serious accusation.
We are discussing "girls dancing in church." See OP.
When you question someone's salvation you have broken the rules of BB.
I have just stated in a previous post that no one's salvation was ever in question.
Your statement concerning me believing in a works-based salvation is false, out-of-line, and should be reported to other moderators. Questioning one's salvation is not permitted.
That is a warning.
Next time it goes to the administration.
I don't put up with that nonsense.

I invite you to bring it to the attention of this administration. I didn't question your salvation, I said your views approach a works based salvation. If I offended you then I apologize but I am offended by you going all MOD on me. I in no way broke any rules...

 

[DHK]

I invite you to bring it to the attention of this administration. I didn't question your salvation, I said your views approach a works based salvation. If I offended you then I apologize but I am offended by you going all MOD on me. I in no way broke any rules...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves."

A works based salvation is no salvation at all; so yes it is an attack on my salvation. How could it not be? However, I had already stated that there is nothing in this thread that has anything to do with salvation. Singing, dancing, etc. has nothing to do with salvation. Why are you trying to connect it to salvation? See the OP. It is about "girls dancing in church," not salvation.

 

[DHK]

double post

 

[Spinach]

David was NOT naked. Read the passage again.

Literally, you are right. By a lot of church standards, wrong.

So let me ask the question literally---was David's dance an abomination to God? Was his near nakedness in dance an abomination to God? Was God pleased with David and his dance, even though Michael stumbled at it?