A video of my girls dancing in church...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1345032&postcount=43

There are two threads in the Other Christian Denom. Forum about this subject. This is one of the posts.

There were instruments in the OT. In the Book of Revelation ch. 5, the redeemed are singing praises with harps in their hands. Instruments are found there. It is not unreasonable to conclude that if both in the past and in the future instruments are permitted, then why not now?

 

You failed to answer my first question.
In regards to your response (in that did not address my question) you failed to show how your hermeneutic transcends across the entire scope of the NT. Your response awhile back was that dancing is not in the NT therefore it cannot be justified. If you are going to use that hermeneutic then you should not fail in using it consistently with every practice you do. I would assume you drive a car but that mode of travel is not found inm the NT just as dancing is not. According to your method how is dancing worng adn driving a car not wrong?

There are so many things I doubt that you could justify from the NT because there is no mention of them either.

So why do you "cherry pick" and do those things which you are comfortable with and throw out those things you are uncomfortable with when so many of them can have the same response, "They are not found in the NT?" I fail to see how that works one time and not another.

 

I just could not remember where there were instruments in the NT so I was wondering what you were thinking. Thanks.

 

I like the phrase "cherry pick".

 

And you've failed to demonstrate that dancing is a form of spiritual worship.

It's simple. There was a vast array of instruments available to the church since its inception. They were universally shunned in the first centuries of Christianity.

We're still waiting for you to justify it, though you'll find it difficult considering there is no record of Christ or the Apostles dancing, despite the fact that Rome and Greece had fully developed and sophisticated performance arts and schools thereof.

As I've demonstrated, you don't understand the hermeneutic. No one is saying that driving is a form of worship.

That's not what he's doing, but even if it were, it's a method to be preferred to yours.

 

double post

 

Don't you hate the double post.. this board has been acting quirky lately...

 

I haven't had any trouble. Could it be a sin problem??

 

And where does it say it is prohibited? It is liberty. WE have individual liberty, and if it brings glory to God, it should not be ridiculed.

This, "I'm more holier than you because I don't dance" is just wrong.

 

"It brings glory to God," is very opinionated and subjective on your part. That is why I say go to the Scriptures, and show how something so carnal as dancing, and something that has been connected with carnal activities throughout the centuries as dancing, can bring glory to God. I am no doubt a generation removed from you. Dancing was one of the first things that I gave up when I got saved. Christians didn't (and shouldn't) dance. How does that bring glory to God?

 

The video in the OP is an example...
Just because something used to be culturally unaccepted in some point in the past doesn't mean it should be unaccepted today.

Your statement that Christians shouldn't dance is subjective as well, as you don't have Bible to back it up...

We need to divorce our cultural beliefs from our theological beliefs.
But I will admit I have problems with that as well.
There are things I struggle with that were taught to me growing up that were culturally influenced... but now that I am studying the Bible for myself, I find that the previous generation either misinterpreted their bible because of lack of education or they simply were lazy and believed what others told them.

For instance, my wife's grandmother would not let a deck of cards in her house... ridiculous from my viewpoint.
My grandmother would not drink coca cola... ridiculous.

We have many Baptist churches (Abc/USA) that has wonderful worship teams... and many Baptists worldwide dance in service.

Don't limit God by what you don't see in the NT.
God is bigger than that.
You are building a doctrine from silence...
This doctrine that Christians shouldn't dance, can only be built from silence in the NT.

It is the same with Christmas plays... Nowhere in the NT.. but it is still people using their gifts and talents to worship God.

Piano players worship God.. again, not in the NT.
And if you say they are not worshipping God, then what are they doing when they play the piano in church?

God gave them that talent to use to glorify God.
Same with artists that paint wonderful paintings in their worship to God.

Don't limit worship to what you were raised with, and what is culturally comfortable to you.
And worse yet don't place your cultural standards equal with the Bible.

The Bible doesn't condemn holy dance.. we shouldn't either.

 

In past years it would have been totally unacceptable--period. What I am saying, is that it has no place in the church. The church is not the place for entertainment. And that is what it is. It does not fall into the category of worship, but rather of entertainment. This is not me arguing from silence but you. You are the one that must come up with some Biblical precedent for dance in the church. My argument is not from silence; your is, for you are the one that affirms that dance can be to the glory of God. Therefore, prove it.

Think logically; I don't have to prove it. You do.
Biblically, everywhere that I have been in the world (and that is a lot of the world), dance is associated with carnal activities. The Bible says "Be not conformed to this world." Dance, like many types of today's CCM is being conformed to this world, and the Bible does have a lot to say about that.

If the culture is wrong; change it. It is not the culture that is wrong. The Bible does not change in relation to the culture. People change. And when they change their culture they often lower their standards and that is unfortunate.
You talk about culture. Would you conform to the culture an African cultural norm where the women go bare-breasted and ask your wife to do the same--if God calls you to be a missionary to that nation. Do we adapt to the culture, or stick to Biblical principles.

Or maybe you were too lazy to study those particular issues out thoroughly to see why they said they were wrong.

I won't use a deck of cards, won't have cards in my house, and shun the games of today that use them. It is not ridiculous. You need to study the issue out.

"Because one person does we all can do it--mentality," doesn't make it right. It is often wrong. The majority is often wrong. You still have no Biblical precedent for dance. It is a carnal activity. You will never find anything remotely similar to that in the NT, and for good reason. The Lord wants worship not entertainment.

I allow the NT to teach me. I suggest you do the same. Where do you get dance out of the NT?

I am not the one building the doctrine. You are, and you are the one building it from silence. Sad to say, it is a copy-cat from the carnality of the world.

You are so mixed up. This doctrine that Christians CAN dance can be built only from silence in the NT. You are the one that is building a doctrine, not I. I am against the doctrine you are building. You are very confused.

You probably wouldn't be too surprised if I told you that I am against Christmas as well. It has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. The tree, the decorations, etc. have more to do with commercialism, paganism, etc. All my neighbors put up Christmas decorations. I didn't. On one side of me lives a Catholic, and on the other an Orthodox (both unsaved). They had Christmas trees and other outdoor decorations; I had none. One of them asked me why I didn't have any decorations. I told him that my family got together to worship Christ, and why he came into this world. He came to die. I was able to give him the gospel because of the absence of decorations, and all the glitter that goes with Christmas.

As I have previously mentioned, my daughter plays the piano in the church. How can I have anything against it? But then there is a Biblical precedent for instruments in the NT.

Yes, and some of the young homeless people are demanding their right to have their "artistic graffiti" left on the downtown buildings. It is artistic. They are talented. Would you allow them to use their "talent" in your church? Is it worshipful? Not everything is. It is carnal. And so is dance. It always has been.

Dance is not holy. Demonstrate it from the Bible.
The Bible doesn't change. Culture changes. And when the culture changes contrary to the Bible, then the culture needs to make another change and come back into conformity with the Bible.
Be not conformed to this world.

 

According to you, it must be found in the NT or it is unacceptable in church. Where is the piano in the NT? I'm not talking about the other instruments, where's the piano?

On the other hand, if the piano is OK with you then are the drums? A harmonica? A saxaphone? How about if I can't afford a "real instrument" and I make music with pots and pans?

But my questions don't matter. Your daughter plays the piano, so you have to find some reason to justify that. You tell everyone else to justify it in the NT, but if your daughter does it no justification is needed?

 

If you want to look in the Other Christian Denominations Forum we just spent two entire threads over whether or not instruments should be allowed in the church. After almost 400 posts on the subject I think we learned something on the subject, and believe me it has nothing to do with my daughter. I believe I would call your statement a false accusation, for you don't know from where my reasoning comes from.
Instruments are taught in the NT. If you want to find out just what they are I suggest you go to those threads and study up on them. There are also other threads that are archived in this forum that have dealt extensively with this same subject. Do a search. I don't need to do your homework for you.

 

A false accusation? Your words were "As I have previously mentioned, my daughter plays the piano in the church. How can I have anything against it? But then there is a Biblical precedent for instruments in the NT." That statement implies that since your daughter plays the piano then you can't have anything against it. The Biblical precedent is an after thought for you.

You contradict yourself:

"believe me it has nothing to do with my daughter"
"my daughter plays the piano in the church. How can I have anything against it?"

 

You have unjustly accused me of wrong motives, and a wrong heart attitude.

I have been consistent in my position. I think that that much is evident to all.
If I believed that instruments were wrong, then I would not allow my daughter to play the piano in the church, neither would I even own a piano. Please keep your unjust accusations to yourself.

 

I'm not accusing you of anything, let alone unjustly accusing you. I'm just telling you what you said.

"I personally have nothing against the use of instruments provided they are used to God's glory. My daughter was the church pianist. How can I be against it?"

"As I have previously mentioned, my daughter plays the piano in the church. How can I have anything against it? But then there is a Biblical precedent for instruments in the NT."

Your words say that because your daughter plays the piano you can't be against it. I'm not judging your motives. I'm just wondering how you can be OK with a piano that is not found in the NT, but yet you denounce dancing for the reason that it is not in the NT.

You are not consistent in your position. You need to decide whether worship can include things not in the NT or if all worship must conform only to what was presented in the NT. Your statements about pianos show that you want it both ways, depending on if it affects you directly or not.

 

I had not read any of this thread before today, but seeing it was apparently going strong on its 12th page, I basically figured what direction it had taken.

First of all, I think the girls in the video are beautiful and artistic. And even though I am not a big fan of dancing, I affirm any endeavors to express the love of God.

As for the conflict here, I will take little part in it, but I will say what I think. I do notice, though, that it seems to be centered on the dancing and how this cannot be verified as worship by NT scripture. Along that line there is no mention of celebrating Christmas, which also cannot be verified as worship, and about all that is said in defense of the music here (or instrumental music in the church, generally) is that it's been thought out and discussed before. As for that title, "3 Kings," we probably know about that, too... though actually there may be 3 kings involved-- 1 Jesus and 2 Herods; though that's not what the term usually means.

So looking up "dance" and I find 4 NT passages; all in the 'gospels,' and 2 pertaining to Herodias, who got John the Baptist's head on a platter for doing such a 'pleasing' dance, and 2 in Jesus' comparison to "this generation"-- "To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep" (Matthew 11:16-17). But then for dancing there is also the return of the "prodigal son" (Luke 15), who heard music and dancing as he approached his father's house. I don't quite see why an illustration to show's God's acceptance of a repentant child would be celebrated by a means that God rejects if the story has validity. If you say, then, that the church is not for celebrating anything, that's easily disproved by I Corinthians 5, when Paul uses the word "celebrate" [the feast]

So I will conclude: Celebration is allowed and encouraged in church.... music and dancing reflect God's reaction when one turns to Him... therefore music and dancing are a way to celebrate and reflect God's pleasure.

There is one other means of reasoning the same thing scripturally, at least the music part of it... it has already been referenced that musical instruments [harps] are said to be played in heaven; the C of C or others say "God has a different will in heaven than on earth." But Jesus said, in the 'model prayer,' "Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."