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http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1345032&postcount=43gb93433 said:Where are instruments found in the NT?
You failed to answer my first question.DHK said:Then git yerself a donkey!
I just could not remember where there were instruments in the NT so I was wondering what you were thinking. Thanks.DHK said:http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1345032&postcount=43
There are two threads in the Other Christian Denom. Forum about this subject. This is one of the posts.
There were instruments in the OT. In the Book of Revelation ch. 5, the redeemed are singing praises with harps in their hands. Instruments are found there. It is not unreasonable to conclude that if both in the past and in the future instruments are permitted, then why not now?
And you've failed to demonstrate that dancing is a form of spiritual worship.gb93433 said:You failed to answer my first question.
It's simple. There was a vast array of instruments available to the church since its inception. They were universally shunned in the first centuries of Christianity.In regards to your response (in that did not address my question) you failed to show how your hermeneutic transcends across the entire scope of the NT.
We're still waiting for you to justify it, though you'll find it difficult considering there is no record of Christ or the Apostles dancing, despite the fact that Rome and Greece had fully developed and sophisticated performance arts and schools thereof.Your response awhile back was that dancing is not in the NT therefore it cannot be justified.
As I've demonstrated, you don't understand the hermeneutic. No one is saying that driving is a form of worship.I would assume you drive a car but that mode of travel is not found inm the NT just as dancing is not. According to your method how is dancing worng adn driving a car not wrong?
That's not what he's doing, but even if it were, it's a method to be preferred to yours.There are so many things I doubt that you could justify from the NT because there is no mention of them either.
So why do you "cherry pick" . . .
I haven't had any trouble. Could it be a sin problem??tinytim said:Don't you hate the double post.. this board has been acting quirky lately...
Aaron said:And you've failed to demonstrate that dancing is a form of spiritual worship.If you have a concordance take a look at the word dancing and notice every context in which it is found. You will fond some interesting things. 2 Sam 6:14-16 is just one example. The inspired Hebrew version in Eccl. 3 says there is a time to dance and you say in your personal version that it contradicts God's word?
Paganism, Mithraism along with many others were doing well during that time too. Mormonism and Islam is spreading too. So what is your point?It's simple. There was a vast array of instruments available to the church since its inception. They were universally shunned in the first centuries of Christianity.
No flush toilets are found in the NT either. There is no record of a computer. There is no record of dresses and pants. So what is your point? Do you really think that everything which Jesus and the apostles did was recorded and could be found in the NT? The Bible does say in Jn 21:25, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written. So what things would be included in that verse?We're still waiting for you to justify it, though you'll find it difficult considering there is no record of Christ or the Apostles dancing, despite the fact that Rome and Greece had fully developed and sophisticated performance arts and schools thereof.
Your hermeneutic is seriously flawed both logically and spiritually. Your understanding of worship is not what scripture teaches. What scripture teaches encompasses far more than your understanding. Your understanding is limited to one word in the NT while several Greek words are translated "worship."As I've demonstrated, you don't understand the hermeneutic. No one is saying that driving is a form of worship.
If you are not worshipping God while you are driving a car then who are you worshipping?
Ro. 12:1, 2, "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."
gb93433 said:Aaron said:And you've failed to demonstrate that dancing is a form of spiritual worship.And if you look up those verses and study them in their contexts you will find that they have nothing to do with our worship of today. It is amazing to me that believers, trying to justify dance must always resort to the OT, and then take OT Scripture out of context. This is a practice many cults do, especially when they resort to the Book of Ecclesiastes. Solomon writes from a philosophical point of view. His them is "vanity of vanities; all is vanity," and sets out to prove it. You say there is a time to dance. You have taken it out of context. If you say there is a time to dance then you must also agree with the rest of the chapter:If you have a concordance take a look at the word dancing and notice every context in which it is found. You will fond some interesting things. 2 Sam 6:14-16 is just one example. The inspired Hebrew version in Eccl. 3 says there is a time to dance and you say in your personal version that it contradicts God's word?
Ecclesiastes 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
--Is killing also a part of your worship and will you be doing it any time soon?
Ecclesiastes 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
--In the light of the two great commandments that Jesus taught, is there ever a time to hate. Would you like to list the people you hate? As I said, Solomon is looking at life from a philosophical point of view. If you fail to look at the context of the book, then you fail to understand what the Scripture is saying, and you are simply taking Scripture out of context.
Where in the NT does the Bible teach that dance is part of the worship of the NT local church? That is the question you must answer.
You are going from the sublime to the ridiculous. Paul traveled for months by ship. But he never considered the ship worship. Why are you even mentioning such mundane things when we are speaking of things pertaining to worship. Stick to the OP. If you want to open a thread on pants, dresses, and flush toilets, etc. then do so. But that is not the subject here.No flush toilets are found in the NT either. There is no record of a computer. There is no record of dresses and pants. So what is your point? Do you really think that everything which Jesus and the apostles did was recorded and could be found in the NT? The Bible does say in Jn 21:25, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written. So what things would be included in that verse?
We are speaking of worship. So keep your head and intelligence in the subject of worship and out of the "flush toilets" you just mentioned. I would rather you share what you have to say about worship than flush toilets.Your hermeneutic is seriously flawed both logically and spiritually. Your understanding of worship is not what scripture teaches. What scripture teaches encompasses far more than your understanding. Your understanding is limited to one word in the NT while several Greek words are translated "worship."
I don't worship anyone (including Christ) while driving a car), and if you lived in a place like I do, you wouldn't either. It makes common sense that if the government would ban the use of cell phones, or even drinking coffee because they are a distraction to the driver, then spending your time "worshiping" while driving is also a distraction. We just had three weeks of sub-minus 20 degree weather, with wind-chill values between minus 40 and minus 50. And then we had a good dump of snow, making the roads very icy. If one does not pay attention to the traffic, the cars in front of you especially, and the intersections, you will find yourself very quickly a paraplegic, or perhaps in heaven. The Bible says: "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might." That means concentrate on what you are doing. You can't drive in these conditions and be worshiping God at the same time. Your full attention must be on what you are doing--driving your vehicle and staying out of accidents. You have no time to worship the Lord while driving. If that is what you are doing, I would call it sin.If you are not worshipping God while you are driving a car then who are you worshipping?
You misuse, and take Scripture out of context. Pitiful.Ro. 12:1, 2, "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."
DHK said:Where in the NT does the Bible teach that dance is part of the worship of the NT local church? That is the question you must answer.
"It brings glory to God," is very opinionated and subjective on your part. That is why I say go to the Scriptures, and show how something so carnal as dancing, and something that has been connected with carnal activities throughout the centuries as dancing, can bring glory to God. I am no doubt a generation removed from you. Dancing was one of the first things that I gave up when I got saved. Christians didn't (and shouldn't) dance. How does that bring glory to God?tinytim said:And where does it say it is prohibited? It is liberty. WE have individual liberty, and if it brings glory to God, it should not be ridiculed.
This, "I'm more holier than you because I don't dance" is just wrong.
In past years it would have been totally unacceptable--period. What I am saying, is that it has no place in the church. The church is not the place for entertainment. And that is what it is. It does not fall into the category of worship, but rather of entertainment. This is not me arguing from silence but you. You are the one that must come up with some Biblical precedent for dance in the church. My argument is not from silence; your is, for you are the one that affirms that dance can be to the glory of God. Therefore, prove it.tinytim said:The video in the OP is an example...
Just because something used to be culturally unaccepted in some point in the past doesn't mean it should be unaccepted today.
Think logically; I don't have to prove it. You do.Your statement that Christians shouldn't dance is subjective as well, as you don't have Bible to back it up...
If the culture is wrong; change it. It is not the culture that is wrong. The Bible does not change in relation to the culture. People change. And when they change their culture they often lower their standards and that is unfortunate.We need to divorce our cultural beliefs from our theological beliefs.
Or maybe you were too lazy to study those particular issues out thoroughly to see why they said they were wrong.But I will admit I have problems with that as well.
There are things I struggle with that were taught to me growing up that were culturally influenced... but now that I am studying the Bible for myself, I find that the previous generation either misinterpreted their bible because of lack of education or they simply were lazy and believed what others told them.
I won't use a deck of cards, won't have cards in my house, and shun the games of today that use them. It is not ridiculous. You need to study the issue out.For instance, my wife's grandmother would not let a deck of cards in her house... ridiculous from my viewpoint.
"Because one person does we all can do it--mentality," doesn't make it right. It is often wrong. The majority is often wrong. You still have no Biblical precedent for dance. It is a carnal activity. You will never find anything remotely similar to that in the NT, and for good reason. The Lord wants worship not entertainment.We have many Baptist churches (Abc/USA) that has wonderful worship teams... and many Baptists worldwide dance in service.
I allow the NT to teach me. I suggest you do the same. Where do you get dance out of the NT?Don't limit God by what you don't see in the NT.
I am not the one building the doctrine. You are, and you are the one building it from silence. Sad to say, it is a copy-cat from the carnality of the world.You are building a doctrine from silence...
You are so mixed up. This doctrine that Christians CAN dance can be built only from silence in the NT. You are the one that is building a doctrine, not I. I am against the doctrine you are building. You are very confused.This doctrine that Christians shouldn't dance, can only be built from silence in the NT.
You probably wouldn't be too surprised if I told you that I am against Christmas as well. It has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. The tree, the decorations, etc. have more to do with commercialism, paganism, etc. All my neighbors put up Christmas decorations. I didn't. On one side of me lives a Catholic, and on the other an Orthodox (both unsaved). They had Christmas trees and other outdoor decorations; I had none. One of them asked me why I didn't have any decorations. I told him that my family got together to worship Christ, and why he came into this world. He came to die. I was able to give him the gospel because of the absence of decorations, and all the glitter that goes with Christmas.It is the same with Christmas plays... Nowhere in the NT.. but it is still people using their gifts and talents to worship God.
As I have previously mentioned, my daughter plays the piano in the church. How can I have anything against it? But then there is a Biblical precedent for instruments in the NT.Piano players worship God.. again, not in the NT.
And if you say they are not worshipping God, then what are they doing when they play the piano in church?
Yes, and some of the young homeless people are demanding their right to have their "artistic graffiti" left on the downtown buildings. It is artistic. They are talented. Would you allow them to use their "talent" in your church? Is it worshipful? Not everything is. It is carnal. And so is dance. It always has been.God gave them that talent to use to glorify God.
Same with artists that paint wonderful paintings in their worship to God.
Dance is not holy. Demonstrate it from the Bible.Don't limit worship to what you were raised with, and what is culturally comfortable to you.
And worse yet don't place your cultural standards equal with the Bible.
The Bible doesn't condemn holy dance.. we shouldn't either.
DHK said:As I have previously mentioned, my daughter plays the piano in the church. How can I have anything against it? But then there is a Biblical precedent for instruments in the NT.
If you want to look in the Other Christian Denominations Forum we just spent two entire threads over whether or not instruments should be allowed in the church. After almost 400 posts on the subject I think we learned something on the subject, and believe me it has nothing to do with my daughter. I believe I would call your statement a false accusation, for you don't know from where my reasoning comes from.matt wade said:According to you, it must be found in the NT or it is unacceptable in church. Where is the piano in the NT? I'm not talking about the other instruments, where's the piano?
On the other hand, if the piano is OK with you then are the drums? A harmonica? A saxaphone? How about if I can't afford a "real instrument" and I make music with pots and pans?
But my questions don't matter. Your daughter plays the piano, so you have to find some reason to justify that. You tell everyone else to justify it in the NT, but if your daughter does it no justification is needed?
DHK said:If you want to look in the Other Christian Denominations Forum we just spent two entire threads over whether or not instruments should be allowed in the church. After almost 400 posts on the subject I think we learned something on the subject, and believe me it has nothing to do with my daughter. I believe I would call your statement a false accusation, for you don't know from where my reasoning comes from.
Instruments are taught in the NT. If you want to find out just what they are I suggest you go to those threads and study up on them. There are also other threads that are archived in this forum that have dealt extensively with this same subject. Do a search. I don't need to do your homework for you.
You have unjustly accused me of wrong motives, and a wrong heart attitude.matt wade said:A false accusation? Your words were "As I have previously mentioned, my daughter plays the piano in the church. How can I have anything against it? But then there is a Biblical precedent for instruments in the NT." That statement implies that since your daughter plays the piano then you can't have anything against it. The Biblical precedent is an after thought for you.
You contradict yourself:
"believe me it has nothing to do with my daughter"
"my daughter plays the piano in the church. How can I have anything against it?"
DHK said:You have unjustly accused me of wrong motives, and a wrong heart attitude.
I have been consistent in my position. I think that that much is evident to all.
If I believed that instruments were wrong, then I would not allow my daughter to play the piano in the church, neither would I even own a piano. Please keep your unjust accusations to yourself.