A video of my girls dancing in church...

[Spinach]

Theres something I dont understand, DHK.

I have seen you vigorously argue against Church of Christers who say everything must come from the New Testament to be valid for us today. You say...correctly...that we go according to the entire counsel of the scriptures, not just the NT.

Now, however, you discredit David dancing unto the Lord, because its from the old testament, and everything must be proven from the New Testament.

Could you explain about this?


Thanks.


:godisgood:

I wonder this as well.

 

[gb93433]

As for godliness, that is just a matter of opinion.

In gnosticism, legalism, and non-Christian religions godliness is opinion but in scripture it is God's word, not man's opinion.

godliness in the Greek NT:
Acts 3:12
1Tim 2:2
1Tim 3:16
1Tim 4:7, 8
1Tim 6:3
1Tim 6:5, 6
1Tim 6:11
2Tim 3:5
Titus 1:1
2Pet 1:3
2Pet 1:6, 7
2Pet 3:11

 

[Aaron]

I know you will say that dance doesn't focus on God but I find it does - if it's done towards God.

Dance "done towards God"? What does that mean?

We have a large deaf congregation and much of our dance incorporates sign language. You can see speaking of God and His greatness in most of our dances - the deaf read it clearly and the congregation understands very clearly what "God", "Lord", "Creator", "worship", "praise" and such is visually.

Sign language is not dance. Neither does it sanctify a dance despite the things signified. It is a non-verbal language and falls under the directives concerning tongues. I've seen it incorporated in songs even when there was no need for it. Why? For the exhibitionism. It looks neat. I've heard another publicly repeat the Lord's Prayer in Aramaic, even though no one assembled could understand it. Why? Exhibitionism. It sounds neat.

"O For a THOUSAND tongues to sing my dear Redeemer's praise!" Yet five understood words are better than ten thousand unknown tongues.

Now, you get a fella up there who never knew how to sign, and he signs by the supernatural power of God, as tongues were operated, then you've got something—as long as it's interpreted, because the UNDERSTOOD WORD of God is the essence of spiritual worship.

You get a fella who was crippled from birth that goes walking and leaping and praising God (e.g. giving thanks to God for his power and mercy), that THE MESSAGE BEING PREACHED is confirmed, then you've got something, because the BELIEVED WORD of God is the essence of spiritual worship.

You get someone like Billy Bray, a vile (You listenin', Bob?) wretch to both sinner and saint alike, whose transformation was so complete that there was no question of the power and glory of God, who would say "I was very happy in work and could leap and dance for joy underground as well as on the surface," (He was a miner.) then you got something, God's WORD IN ACTION, i.e., a changed life, is the essence of spiritual worship.

Billy Bray didn't dance in church.

So which of these is like the dance your girls did? Mind you—I don't blame them. They're innocent. But I shudder to think of the teaching they're receiving.

Dance does have its place—among the types and shadows of the law (though never commanded, neither suffered in the Temple or synagogue). You have yet to present anything other than fuzzy feeling and sappiness to support it as a spiritual form of worship. Sad.

 

[Lagardo]

You have yet to present anything other than fuzzy feeling and sappiness to support it as a spiritual form of worship. Sad.

You haven't presented anything other than your opinion. Being able to say your opinion bluntly does not make it more credible. It is what it is, an opinion.

Now, if you need to take care of that shuddering, I'd suggest a nice warm blanket.

 

[Aaron]

You believe that spiritual worship consists of something other than the Word of God? Do Tell.

 

[Lagardo]

You believe that spiritual worship consists of something other than the Word of God? Do Tell.

The best definition I have heard on worship is setting our mind's attention and our hearts attention on God.

Methodology is really secondary. If it were more important, I suppose there might have been some commandments telling us what we should and should not do in worship, but as you have pointed out, those commandments are in the shadows and types of the Old Testament.

How are those shudders?

 

[Aaron]

The best definition I have heard on worship is setting our mind's attention and our hearts attention on God.

Methodology is really secondary. If it were more important, I suppose there might have been some commandments telling us what we should and should not do in worship, but as you have pointed out, those commandments are in the shadows and types of the Old Testament.

How are those shudders?

Christ told us that because God is a spirit, those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. And you say you found nothing in the NT about what we should and should not do in worship? I'll also direct you to 1 Cor. 14.

 

[DHK]

You haven't presented anything other than your opinion. Being able to say your opinion bluntly does not make it more credible. It is what it is, an opinion.

Was there dancing in the OT Temple?
Was there dancing in the synagogues?
Is there evidence that there will be dancing in heaven?
Is there any evidence in any NT church that there was dancing?

Where is there any Biblical evidence that dancing is a valid form of worship for today in our churches? I haven't seen one good post giving any evidence whatsoever. Only opinion...

To demand for one to prove a negative is totally illogical. We don't have to prove that it is NOT a valid form of worship; BUT rather you have to demonstrate that it IS a valid form of worship.

Would you debate a Muslim that way?
You say that Christ is the only way to heaven, and that Allah isn't, (John 14:6).
The Muslim says: Prove that Allah isn't.
One doesn't prove a negative.
Rather you prove that Christ is the way.
The Muslim must prove that Allah is.
You must prove that Christ is.
Again you prove that which you affirm; not that which you affirm not.
Be logical about this.

 

[tinytim]

Dance "done towards God"? What does that mean?

It doesn't take brain surgeon to figure that out.. actually anyone that has ever really worshipped God, knows our worship is to done toward HIM.

It is for His pleasure, and just because some people here don't like dance doesn't mean God doesn't..

Here is a news flash, Aaron.. YOU ARE NOT GOD.

You don't even understand fully the mind of God.. and your opinions do not equal scripture. You are placing your interpretation of Scripture on the same level as scripture....

BTW, I don't fully understand the mind of God either..

Making fun of a woman's daughters because you don't like dancing is wrong.

You have been on annsni's case since yesterday, and you should be ashamed.

Annsni.. the next time you should share your worship in fellowship forums.. that way people that don't appreciate other Christian's worship won't have a voice to complain against your daughters..

I for one am very proud of your daughters.. keep up the good work..
YOU are a good parent.. it shines through.

 

[Aaron]

Making fun of a woman's daughters because you don't like dancing is wrong.

Agreed. I would never do that. In fact, I applaud mothers who teach their daughters dance. Where have I ever made fun of anyone's child?

What I think is contemptible is parading them in front of a congregation and calling it worship. God didn't receive it. But the burden is not on the shoulders of the children. Never did I place it there. The blame is squarely on the shoulders of the parents and the blind guides who taught them to do so.

**I would just draw the attention of those who've accused me of having a "vile" tongue to your statement above and say that guile from those espousing the popular ideology appears to be perfectly acceptable.**

 

[tinytim]

YOu speak like David's wife.. and God punished her.

Be careful. Just a friendly warning from one brother to another..

YOU don't know what God receives and what he doesn't.
YOU don't have the mind of God.. His thoughts are way above ours.

 

[Aaron]

It doesn't take brain surgeon to figure that out..

No, it takes a theologian—something that seems to be scarce these days.

actually anyone that has ever really worshipped God, knows our worship is to done toward HIM.

True worshippers worship the Father in spirit and in truth. That's what Christ said, and the criteria are objective and universal, not arcane as you intimate here. Lacking, as you do, the Scriptural basis for your feelings you appeal to something secret and extra-Biblical.

It is for His pleasure, and just because some people here don't like dance doesn't mean God doesn't..

Well, then PROVE what is that good and acceptible and perfect will of God, or are rants all you have to offer?

Here is a news flash, Aaron.. YOU ARE NOT GOD.

That's right. I LOVE dance. It's beautiful and breathtaking when skillfully executed. It's not by accident that the nine fruits of the Spirit are called "nine ladies dancing" in the popular carol. But then, I'm not God, so I don't presume that what I love and admire are what HE loves and admires. Got go by the Scriptures on that . . .

You don't even understand fully the mind of God.. and your opinions do not equal scripture.

That's right. Look at yourself in the mirror and say that ten times.

You are placing your interpretation of Scripture on the same level as scripture....

No I'm not. I'm still waiting for you to justify YOUR opinion that God accepts dance.

 

[tinytim]

No I'm not. I'm still waiting for you to justify YOUR opinion that God accepts dance.

That's right it is an opinion... just like yours.. you don't have proof that God doesn't approve.. we are arguing over opinions....

Which is why this debate has gone on for ages.. there is nothing in the Bible one way or the other.. it is a cultural argument.

I am blessed when people come back from Bolivia on mission trips and they show how the Baptists in Bolivia dance.. .every service...
They know how to praise God.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Those that want to do away with dance in worship want to exclude over half the Bible.. the OT.

My proof would be David.. but you will not accept that.. so we are just going in circles...

I can't wait to dance in Heaven. (sure can't do it down here!!! :laugh: )

 

[gb93433]

What I think is contemptible is parading them in front of a congregation and calling it worship. God didn't receive it.

Your view of worship is limited to a few words in scripture when worship encompasses a far greater meaning than what you assign it. Look up the other Hebrew and Greek words. A good start is in Romans 12:1.The average Christian cannot meet God in worship on Sunday because he has not worshiped God in obedience during the week.

 

[DHK]

My proof would be David.. but you will not accept that.. so we are just going in circles...

Did David dance in the Temple, the OT place of worship?

 

[tinytim]

Right, worship is much more than two hours on Sunday..

We are not limited by place and time.. (John 4)

God can be worshipped anywhere.. Don't pigeonhole God..
He is much to big.

 

[tinytim]

Did David dance in the Temple, the OT place of worship?

No, but he did dance before God...
2 Samuel 6:14
(14) Then David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod.

That is worship...

 

[tinytim]

And when Michal called David on it.. he again said...
2 Samuel 6:21
(21) So David said to Michal, "It was before the Lord, who chose me instead of your father and all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel. Therefore I will play music before the Lord.

 

[tinytim]

Did David dance in the Temple, the OT place of worship?

The temple wasn't the place of worship throughout all the OT...

Where else did they worship God.

Did Abraham ever worship God?

what about Moses?
Joseph?

Adam?

Noah?

What about Daniel in Babylon?

Why do you limit worship to the temple in the OT.

Many, many people worshipped God without the temple.

 

[gb93433]

True worshippers worship the Father in spirit and in truth. That's what Christ said, and the criteria are objective and universal, not arcane as you intimate here.

Now apply that to Mt. 28:19,20 AND James 1:22.

I'm still waiting for you to justify YOUR opinion that God accepts dance.

Are you saying that God did not accept David's dancing? I might be blind but I am unable to find any scripture that would suggest your opinion in regards to David.

I would suggest that that most of "worship" today is the same thing Amos 6 condemns because the people are lulled into thinking by the pastor that they are doing God's will by doing church things. They are so busy with church things that God cannot possibly use them to reach people, so they are used by Satan in their complacency among those in the world.