but NOT the same means provided by God in which to do such!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
A.W. Pink - The Doctrine of Election
- Thread starter markwaltermd
- Start date
but NOT the same means provided by God in which to do such!
Sinners can do NOTHING except receive the Free Gift, by believing upon jesus, and even work is by the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives!
Pitchback
Romans 4:4-5 teaches that God credits our faith in Christ, or not, by His sovereign choice, as righteousness. Note the faith was not righteous or meritorious, it was just another filthy rag, but God in His mercy chooses to credit this filthy rag as righteousness, so all the merit is of God.
So this is not self salvation, or works salvation, for we are saved by grace through faith and not by works which we have done. Our willing to be saved does not save us, for it does not depend upon the man that wills, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy (Romans 9:16).
Then you present more mistaken assertions from the vast stockpile of mistaken assertion that is Calvinism. You say fallen man cannot "summon affection for God" yet in Matthew 13:1-26 we read of fallen men receiving the gospel with joy.
I could go on, but I am still waiting for any Calvinist to address the shoddy exegesis of Mr. Pink. I expect I will wait a long time.
Romans 4:4-5 teaches that God credits our faith in Christ, or not, by His sovereign choice, as righteousness. Note the faith was not righteous or meritorious, it was just another filthy rag, but God in His mercy chooses to credit this filthy rag as righteousness, so all the merit is of God.
So this is not self salvation, or works salvation, for we are saved by grace through faith and not by works which we have done. Our willing to be saved does not save us, for it does not depend upon the man that wills, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy (Romans 9:16).
Then you present more mistaken assertions from the vast stockpile of mistaken assertion that is Calvinism. You say fallen man cannot "summon affection for God" yet in Matthew 13:1-26 we read of fallen men receiving the gospel with joy.
I could go on, but I am still waiting for any Calvinist to address the shoddy exegesis of Mr. Pink. I expect I will wait a long time.
The doctrine of election presented by Mr. Pink is based on shoddy exegesis. God chooses the elect through...faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. We did not have faith before creation, but only after we lived without mercy. Therefore our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime. 1 Peter 2:9-10. When God sets us apart in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, God transfers us from the realm of darkness into His marvelous light, into the kingdom of His Son. And when this occurs, we are enrolled in heaven, our name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. Thus our names are written "from" the foundation of the world and not "before."
Last edited by a moderator:
markwaltermd
New Member
Romans is clear that our best efforts are but filthy rags. Our faith is commanded, and the elect heed that command. You seem to be having trouble delineating here, the role of faith. Our faith is not the proximate basis of our righteousness: it is the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us.
I don't need to defend Pink: 1.) because he's right on this, 2.) because I'm not his publicist and 3.) because you have not raised any valid arguments against him on this matter.
Another thing is that van has this "peculiar view" on just what Election is , as per the Bible , he hold to Corporate election...
Calvinists run away from specifics and misrepresent the views of others. Did I say our best efforts are something other than filthy rags? Nope. Strike one.
Matthew 13:1-26 says a non-elect man received the gospel with joy. Therefore the premise that only the elect respond to the command to believe in Jesus is false. Also consider Matthew 7. Such views as espoused by Calvinism are based on shoddy exegesis. Strike two.
Again, I have no trouble delineating the role of faith, our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand. We are saved by grace through faith. It is God who credits our faith as righteousness, or not, i.e. Matthew 7. Strike three.
Mr. Pink said the election of Ephesians 1:3-4 occurred before the foundation of the world and he was correct. Then he said the election of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 also occurred before the foundation of the world which as a rewrite of scripture. Then he said our names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world which is yet another rewrite of scripture. Calvinism must run away from its foundation of shoddy exegesis.
BTW, the Bible teaches both corporate and individual election, as taught by many scholars including Dr. Daniel B. Wallace. Pay no attention to what Calvinists say are my views, they are almost always misrepresentations to create strawman arguments to knock down.
Last edited by a moderator:
markwaltermd
New Member
Van,
This is really become broken-record, last-wordism. You're working hard to convince yourself of what you've already convinced yourself of. Dialoguing this way, which allows you to showcase your prejudices against these Scriptural truths is not fruitful.
Calvinism is merely a statement of these scriptural truths which are made plain in the Bible. What I generally see is that those who reject the idea of a sovereign God -- those who maintain that they effected their own salvation in some way -- run away from the foundational truth summarized in the doctrine of Election because they aren't prepared to accept the implications of a truly sovereign God who makes His own eternal decrees according to His own counsel. Those "Calvinists" as you call them have reckoned to accept the Biblical teaching, even when it is uncomfortable to the human mind, and to allow God to be God.
This is really become broken-record, last-wordism. You're working hard to convince yourself of what you've already convinced yourself of. Dialoguing this way, which allows you to showcase your prejudices against these Scriptural truths is not fruitful.
Calvinism is merely a statement of these scriptural truths which are made plain in the Bible. What I generally see is that those who reject the idea of a sovereign God -- those who maintain that they effected their own salvation in some way -- run away from the foundational truth summarized in the doctrine of Election because they aren't prepared to accept the implications of a truly sovereign God who makes His own eternal decrees according to His own counsel. Those "Calvinists" as you call them have reckoned to accept the Biblical teaching, even when it is uncomfortable to the human mind, and to allow God to be God.
Van is wrong yet again when he says:
because he denies this-
because he denies this-
Note the effort to change the subject to "last-word-ism" rather than "from" does not mean "before". Away from the fact our names are enrolled in heaven when we are chosen, and we are individually chosen through faith in the truth.
God is sovereign so it is yet another misrepresentation to create a strawmen to say "those that effected their own salvation in some way" when I said it does not depend on the man that wills, God has mercy upon whom He has mercy.
Calvinism does not accept the Biblical teachings on election or the Sovereignty of God. We are saved by grace through faith and we are chosen through belief in the truth. Calvinism rewrites these verses to read, we are saved by grace, then given faith, and we are chosen without regard for our faith in the truth. Verse after verse, passage after passage Calvinism must rewrite, edit, redefine and so forth, all the while finding fault with the advocates of truth.
I see yet another Calvinism has misrepresented yet another verse, posted without a reference to make its out of context usage more difficult to detect. However, please flip over to 1 Timothy 1:9 and lets consider it together, all you truth seekers.
What this verse says is those of us "in Christ" which refers being spiritually placed in Christ during our lifetime, which is our individual election per 2 Thessalonians 2:13, are granted grace from all eternity.
Clearly the "grace" refers to our corporate election before the foundation of the world, Ephesian 1:3-4. However when did we "receive" or have that grace applied to us individually? It was granted us who are in Christ. Thus the very verse cited by Calvinism actually teaches that we are granted the grace of redemption only after we are in Christ, but the grace of redemption is from eternity, for that is when God both chose His Redeemer and corporately those His Redeemer would redeem.
What this verse says is those of us "in Christ" which refers being spiritually placed in Christ during our lifetime, which is our individual election per 2 Thessalonians 2:13, are granted grace from all eternity.
Clearly the "grace" refers to our corporate election before the foundation of the world, Ephesian 1:3-4. However when did we "receive" or have that grace applied to us individually? It was granted us who are in Christ. Thus the very verse cited by Calvinism actually teaches that we are granted the grace of redemption only after we are in Christ, but the grace of redemption is from eternity, for that is when God both chose His Redeemer and corporately those His Redeemer would redeem.
NT Election is based upon the Sovereign Will of the heavenly fasther, and is individual in its viewpoint...
While one can make a "Corporate election" by God for the nation of isreal under the old Covenant, the new Covenant is sinners saved on an individual basis, and once saved, THEN placed by God into the Body of jesus, his Church!
Yeshua1, please stop making up arguments that are mistaken.
1) All elections for salvation are based on the Sovereign Will of God.
2) That includes all the individual elections for salvation through faith in the truth mentioned in the New Testament.
3. Being "chosen in Him" refers to a corporate election, otherwise we would find things like "God has chosen you" or "God chose the poor of this world" or even being "a chosen race" ... that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness in His marvelous light.
4) And how are we chosen individually in the New Testament? God sets us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:2.
Folks, it is a lock, scripture is crystal, Calvinism is mistaken. Born again believers are the "called, chosen, and faithful." Note the sequence!!
1) All elections for salvation are based on the Sovereign Will of God.
2) That includes all the individual elections for salvation through faith in the truth mentioned in the New Testament.
3. Being "chosen in Him" refers to a corporate election, otherwise we would find things like "God has chosen you" or "God chose the poor of this world" or even being "a chosen race" ... that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness in His marvelous light.
4) And how are we chosen individually in the New Testament? God sets us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 1:2.
Folks, it is a lock, scripture is crystal, Calvinism is mistaken. Born again believers are the "called, chosen, and faithful." Note the sequence!!
Last edited by a moderator:
Mr. Pink understands that predestination is foundational, but is clueless as to what was predestined. God's predetermined plan of redemption included His Redeemer, chosen before the foundation of the world, and corporately those His Redeemer would redeem, also chosen before the foundation of the world. At this pre-creation point in eternity, no one existed to be chosen "out of the world" there we no poor in the eyes of the world to set apart, no one could be chosen through faith in the truth. Therefore this pre-temporal election was corporate, we were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.
I have already addressed several words that Calvinism redefines, such as world, regeneration, choice, and all; now I must add yet another, adoption. Mr. Pink asserts wrongly that our adoption as sons occurs when God spiritually places us in Christ. Thus by a slight of hand, that results in us being predestined to be placed in Christ. This is a work of fiction.
When Paul uses the word translated adoption, which literally means "to be made a son" Paul is referring to our resurrection in glorified bodies at our Lord's second coming. Paul makes this crystal in Romans 8:23.
Now candor requires that Paul also used the word to refer to Israelite as children of God, hence they were made sons in a physical sense, God chose a bloodline to carry the law, covenants, glory and promises of God to the world (Romans 9:4).
However, in all the other verses where Paul uses the term adoption, it refers to people who have been redeemed, born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit which is given as a pledge to our adoption (bodily resurrection) and by which we cry out Abba Father.
Now lets actually look at Ephesians 1:5 which says we are predestined to adoption as sons. Verse 6 tells us we receive this blessing of predestination after we are "in the Beloved. In verse 11 we see that our inheritance has been predestined and in verse 14 we see that the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge for that predestined inheritance. Thus the indwelt Spirit is the Spirit of Adoption, i.e. the pledge of our adoption, our bodily resurrection.
I have already addressed several words that Calvinism redefines, such as world, regeneration, choice, and all; now I must add yet another, adoption. Mr. Pink asserts wrongly that our adoption as sons occurs when God spiritually places us in Christ. Thus by a slight of hand, that results in us being predestined to be placed in Christ. This is a work of fiction.
When Paul uses the word translated adoption, which literally means "to be made a son" Paul is referring to our resurrection in glorified bodies at our Lord's second coming. Paul makes this crystal in Romans 8:23.
Now candor requires that Paul also used the word to refer to Israelite as children of God, hence they were made sons in a physical sense, God chose a bloodline to carry the law, covenants, glory and promises of God to the world (Romans 9:4).
However, in all the other verses where Paul uses the term adoption, it refers to people who have been redeemed, born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit which is given as a pledge to our adoption (bodily resurrection) and by which we cry out Abba Father.
Now lets actually look at Ephesians 1:5 which says we are predestined to adoption as sons. Verse 6 tells us we receive this blessing of predestination after we are "in the Beloved. In verse 11 we see that our inheritance has been predestined and in verse 14 we see that the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge for that predestined inheritance. Thus the indwelt Spirit is the Spirit of Adoption, i.e. the pledge of our adoption, our bodily resurrection.
Last edited by a moderator:
markwaltermd
New Member
While I disagree with this statement entirely, you seem to be arguing the same thing that you were previously. You fabricate the qualifier "corporate" when you read a Biblical passage on election that you don't like. You are in essence saying that you made yourself elect of God by virtue of your faith, not understanding that man would never come close to saving faith without the necessary grace of God, given to His elect to do so. You are simply restating the longstanding semi-Pelagian view of cooperation or synergistic regeneration.
That actually makes you more Catholic than historic Baptist...
"If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed"! (The Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Canon IV)
"If anyone shall affirm, that since the fall of Adam, man’s freewill is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing titular, yea a name, without a thing, and a fiction introduced by Satan into the Church; let such an one be accursed"! (The Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Canon V)
This is what happens, Van, when we wander too far from our foundations.
yes, as Van makes the common mistake to NOT see that being spiritually dead in our sins, unable to freely co assist/co operate with the the grace of God in order to allow Him to save us!
Actually the mistake is your understanding of Van's view.
Where am I "misunderstanding " him?
Pitchback
1) Yes, I am saying the same thing, and have not changed as the Biblical message has not changed.
2) Yes, I add the qualifier, He chose us [corporately] in Him, just as Calvinism adds the qualifier, He chose us [individually] in Him. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
3) Why is it that all Calvinists must misrepresent their opponents, I did not say we elect ourselves, I said we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. It is God alone who credits our faith, or not. Thus we do not elect ourselves for God crediting our faith as righteousness is all of grace.
4) Man comes to faith and it is God who credits it as righteousness, the faith does not merit salvation, but God's grace provides salvation.
5) We have faith before we are chosen for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. My view is based on actual scripture.
6) All Calvinists like to claim their opponents are heretics, rather than address the Biblical basis of the views differing from Calvinism.
If you can read folks, read your bibles! We are saved by grace through faith, therefore faith comes before we are saved. We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, therefore faith comes before individual election for salvation.
Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture that ignores or nullifies verse after verse, passage after passage.
So by the numbers, Pink assumes people reject his view of the doctrine of election because they are prideful and are wanting to merit their own salvation. Next he conflates the corporate election before the foundation of the world with our individual election through faith in the truth. He also claims names are written in the Lamb's book of life "before" the foundation of the world, but the text reads "from" the foundation of the world.
Now let me go over it again by the numbers.
(1)Were we chosen in Him BEFORE the foundation of the Word? Yes, Ephesians 1:3-4. When God chose His Redeemer to be His Lamb, His redemption plan was to redeem believers and conform them to His Redeemer's image, and to adopt (resurrect) them bodily at His second coming, and for them to thus inherit eternal life. This was a corporate election.
(2) During our lifetime, after we have lived without mercy, we are individually chosen and placed in Christ, and therefore we are then individually predestined to be conformed, adopted and to inherit eternal life. This election occurs from the beginning not before the foundation of the world.
This view is consistent with all scripture, Calvinism alters the meaning of "from" to say it must mean before because that is what Calvinism claims.
1) Yes, I am saying the same thing, and have not changed as the Biblical message has not changed.
2) Yes, I add the qualifier, He chose us [corporately] in Him, just as Calvinism adds the qualifier, He chose us [individually] in Him. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
3) Why is it that all Calvinists must misrepresent their opponents, I did not say we elect ourselves, I said we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. It is God alone who credits our faith, or not. Thus we do not elect ourselves for God crediting our faith as righteousness is all of grace.
4) Man comes to faith and it is God who credits it as righteousness, the faith does not merit salvation, but God's grace provides salvation.
5) We have faith before we are chosen for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. My view is based on actual scripture.
6) All Calvinists like to claim their opponents are heretics, rather than address the Biblical basis of the views differing from Calvinism.
If you can read folks, read your bibles! We are saved by grace through faith, therefore faith comes before we are saved. We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, therefore faith comes before individual election for salvation.
Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture that ignores or nullifies verse after verse, passage after passage.
So by the numbers, Pink assumes people reject his view of the doctrine of election because they are prideful and are wanting to merit their own salvation. Next he conflates the corporate election before the foundation of the world with our individual election through faith in the truth. He also claims names are written in the Lamb's book of life "before" the foundation of the world, but the text reads "from" the foundation of the world.
Now let me go over it again by the numbers.
(1)Were we chosen in Him BEFORE the foundation of the Word? Yes, Ephesians 1:3-4. When God chose His Redeemer to be His Lamb, His redemption plan was to redeem believers and conform them to His Redeemer's image, and to adopt (resurrect) them bodily at His second coming, and for them to thus inherit eternal life. This was a corporate election.
(2) During our lifetime, after we have lived without mercy, we are individually chosen and placed in Christ, and therefore we are then individually predestined to be conformed, adopted and to inherit eternal life. This election occurs from the beginning not before the foundation of the world.
This view is consistent with all scripture, Calvinism alters the meaning of "from" to say it must mean before because that is what Calvinism claims.
Last edited by a moderator:
We do not say that those against the doctrines of grace are heretics automatically, for that is reserved for those who would deny jesus and the Cross totally in order to be saved, those holding to a "false jesus/Gospel"...
look at you as someone who is NOT taking into account the entireity of the biblical teaching on this matter, and holding to some wrong, but not heretical, positions!