A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[J. Jump]

Still waiting, JJ..............

Amy is this the FINAL question that is going to cause you to see what we are saying or is this just more questioning for the sake of questioning so you can act like we are ignoring you?

Is this the one that tips the scales for you?

How many questions have to be answered Amy?

By the way I've been waiting for WEEKS now for you to explain to me how you can see that warnings are to believers and also still hold to unconditional security and still say the gospel of grace through faith apart from works and the gospel of the kingdom are the same.

Still waiting Amy..................

 

[npetreley]

J. Jump and the argonauts dodged it again, Amy.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy is this the FINAL question that is going to cause you to see what we are saying or is this just more questioning for the sake of questioning so you can act like we are ignoring you?

Is this the one that tips the scales for you?

How many questions have to be answered Amy?

By the way I've been waiting for WEEKS now for you to explain to me how you can see that warnings are to believers and also still hold to unconditional security and still say the gospel of grace through faith apart from works and the gospel of the kingdom are the same.

Still waiting Amy..................

JJ, that is another topic. And I never said that the warnings were to believers, but that they appeared to be. If I said otherwise, I apologize. That was another thread and another subject. But, thanks to you and your buddies, I have learned that all those warnings are not to believers. It was a question that I asked because I wanted to see what others believed they meant. But, I have NEVER claimed to believe what you teach or that believers will be in hell or outerdarkness or any other place where the Lord is not.


Now, answer my question please, if you are able. But I think you have avoided it because you know it will totally invalidate your pet doctrine.

 

[J. Jump]

JJ, that is another topic.

Oh so once again we are the only ones that have to answer questions and when you get called on the carpet for a lack of response well that's another topic. Give me a break.

And I never said that the warnings were to believers, but that they appeared to be.

Ah starting to back away now are you. Well I told you you were going to have to if you want to hold on to some of "your" beliefs, because what you currently believe just won't stand up to the test if the warnings are really to believers. And they still really are to believers.

I have learned that all those warnings are not to believers.

Oh here we go . . . full fledge retreat. I am truly disappointed, but not surprised unfortunatley.

Now, answer my question please, if you are able. But I think you have avoided it because you know it will totally invalidate your pet doctrine.

You know after a time of answering practically all of your questions it just gets old, but just so you can't rightly accuse me of avoiding you, and your question certainly does not invalidate the gospel of the kingdom by ANY strech here's a verse for you to take a gander at, though you will just deny it, reword it or simply ignore it.

Revelation 19:8

Amy I stayed in these conversations MUCH longer than I cared to, because while you saw that the warnings were to believers there was a chance that you would see the rest of the Truth of Scripture, however you have let some others persuade you to hold on to the majority. So now it is time for me to step away because there is no point in going over the same old stuff time after time after time after time after time after time . . . my heart truly aches for you, whether you believe it or not.

 

[Amy.G]

Well J, your refusal to answer my question, answers my question.

I will answer it for you though.

There are only 2 options. Either you will enter the kingdom by your righteousness or by Christ's righteousness. It can only be one or the other. The Bible is crystal clear that we have NO righteousness. Only Christ is righteous. Therefore, you cannot enter the kingdom unless you are trusting in the righteousness of Christ.

So go ahead and work yourself right into outerdarkness, because that's where you're going to end up without the righteousness of Christ. But you won't be there for 1000 years, you'll be there for eternity.

You'd better think about that.

 

[npetreley]

Well J, your refusal to answer my question, answers my question.

I will answer it for you though.

There are only 2 options. Either you will enter the kingdom by your righteousness or by Christ's righteousness. It can only be one or the other. The Bible is crystal clear that we have NO righteousness. Only Christ is righteous. Therefore, you cannot enter the kingdom unless you are trusting in the righteousness of Christ.

So go ahead and work yourself right into outerdarkness, because that's where you're going to end up without the righteousness of Christ. But you won't be there for 1000 years, you'll be there for eternity.

You'd better think about that.

A very big Amen, Amy.

 

[TCGreek]

Well J, your refusal to answer my question, answers my question.

I will answer it for you though.

There are only 2 options. Either you will enter the kingdom by your righteousness or by Christ's righteousness. It can only be one or the other. The Bible is crystal clear that we have NO righteousness. Only Christ is righteous. Therefore, you cannot enter the kingdom unless you are trusting in the righteousness of Christ.

So go ahead and work yourself right into outerdarkness, because that's where you're going to end up without the righteousness of Christ. But you won't be there for 1000 years, you'll be there for eternity.

You'd better think about that.

Tough words, I say, but how can I disagree.

 

[Amy.G]

You know after a time of answering practically all of your questions it just gets old, but just so you can't rightly accuse me of avoiding you, and your question certainly does not invalidate the gospel of the kingdom by ANY strech here's a verse for you to take a gander at, though you will just deny it, reword it or simply ignore it.

Revelation 19:8

Well, thank you for the verse. It proves my point. I looked up the words "righteous acts" in my lexical aid supplement in my Bible and here's what it says:

Dikaioma; the product or result of being justified by God. The rights or claims which one has before God when he becomes His child by faith through Christ. In Rev. 19:8 where the translation is "the righteousness of saints", it is actually the legal rights of saints (dikaiomata).

I believe we already covered the fact that the trial, sentence and execution has already taken place by our substitute. This is a legal matter that has already been resolved by Christ taking our place.
We are only justified by God through our faith in the righteousness of Christ, His sacrifice for our sins. When Jesus said "it is finished" He meant He had finished the judicial transaction. He was tried, sentenced and executed on our behalf.
There are no amount of works that can ever justify us before God.

You are depending on your own righteousness (by works) to enter the kingdom. If you continue in that false belief, you may well be one of those who Christ says "I never knew you".

 

[Hope of Glory]

First of all, the passage that contains Romans 8:1 begins in chapter 7.

Second of all, Revelation 19:8 says, "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Righteous acts of the saints. Works. Robertson say this (bold is mine): This is the explanation (gar) of the bridal dress and explains why there is work for the Bride as well as for Christ (Phi_2:12.).

Rufus, Romans 8:1 is another example that the grammar and the context do not contradict. This is clearly dependent upon the condition present therein, and most people forget the word "now".

Being "in Christ" is also evident from both the grammar and the context. Being born into the family of God is not the same as being "in Christ". Once in the family always in the family. On the contrary: We are exhorted to "abide in Him" as a manner of belief and practice.

1 John 2:28: "And now, little children [teknion], abide [present, active, imperative] in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have [aorist, active, subjunctive] confidence, and not be ashamed [aorist, passive, subjunctive] before [apo, from] him at his coming."

1 John 2:24: "Let that therefore abide [menO; present, active, imperative] in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain [menO; aorist, active, subjunctive; may abide] in you, ye also shall continue [menO; future, active, indicative; will abide] in the Son, and in the Father.

Luke 10:20-22: "… rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed [apokaluptO; aorist, indicative; unveiled] them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal [apokaluptO; to unveil] him."

2 John 1:9: "Whosoever transgresseth [present, active], and abideth [present, active, participle] not in the doctrine of Christ, hath [present, active of ecO; regardeth] not God. He that abideth [present, active, participle] in the doctrine of Christ, he hath [present, active of ecO; regardeth] both the Father and the Son."

Being "in Christ" involves works.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I believe we already covered the fact that the trial, sentence and execution has already taken place by our substitute.

You stated it as your opinion, to which the passage was shown that we are yet to stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Tell me, Amy, why are we going to have to answer for our deeds, whether good or bad, if we don't have to answer for them? Are we going to get a good scolding, or is that too judgmental since this has already taken place?

 

[skypair]

There are several Millennial Exclusionists in my library (AE Wilson, Zane Hodges, etc.) who would strongly disagree with me on the "hell" issue. But they would agree with me (and with you, skypair) that believers lose their crown.

I'd if even my own disagree with me.

What is a crown? Is it just a shiny metal hat? If there no kingdom connected to the crown, then the crown is meaningless. Yeah, we probably toss them at His feet for Him to reannoint us, perhaps into a responsibility more in tune with our spiritual gifts.

Whether we ever agree on the issue of where those who are deemed "unfaithful servants" go after the JSOC, we are very close on the issue of exclusion from Millennial reign with Christ.

lacy

Well, we will all be outside the earthly MK in my book. We'll be in hevenly Jersusalem ruling angels who fly to and from the throne of Christ, Joh 1:51.

skypair

 

[Rufus_1611]

Well J, your refusal to answer my question, answers my question.

I will answer it for you though.

There are only 2 options. Either you will enter the kingdom by your righteousness or by Christ's righteousness. It can only be one or the other. The Bible is crystal clear that we have NO righteousness. Only Christ is righteous. Therefore, you cannot enter the kingdom unless you are trusting in the righteousness of Christ.

So go ahead and work yourself right into outerdarkness, because that's where you're going to end up without the righteousness of Christ. But you won't be there for 1000 years, you'll be there for eternity.

You'd better think about that.

Amy,

Did you answer the questions posed in this post http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1058098&postcount=181?

 

[Amy.G]

You stated it as your opinion, to which the passage was shown that we are yet to stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Tell me, Amy, why are we going to have to answer for our deeds, whether good or bad, if we don't have to answer for them? Are we going to get a good scolding, or is that too judgmental since this has already taken place?

You're problem is that you are confusing the JSOC with judicial, punitive judgement. That has already taken place in the Crucifixion of Christ. "It is finished".
This same judgement has NOT taken place yet for unbelievers. They will stand at the GWT.
The judgement seat of Christ is for believers only. Those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. This is because the requirements of the Law were met in Christ. The wages of sin is death, and Christ tasted death for you. We are found not guilty because all of our sin and it's consequence (death) were layed on Christ.

If you will just do a little bit of study on the bema seat of the Greek games (which Paul is using as a comparison to the JSOC), you will find that only rewards were given at the bema, not punishments. You begin the race when you are born again. If you do not receive any rewards, you will not lose your standing (salvation) with God, but you will not receive the wonderful things God has stored up for us in heaven. These are the things that we "work" for. If you are disqualified, it means you do not receive any rewards. If you think being disqualified means anything else, then you are saying that Paul feared losing his salvation, because of his words "lest I be disqualified". He considered his "work" in the churches to be his crown. This again is referring to rewards at the bema, or JSOC. If he were to be disqualified, he would lose his crown, but not his salvation.



If you are punished for sin, then Christ's death was in vain and you have believed in vain. You cannot depend on your own righteousness (works) to gain you entrance into the kingdom. The only way to be with God is to put your faith in the finished work of Christ.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,

Did you answer the questions posed in this post http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1058098&postcount=181?

Yes, post #253

 

[J. Jump]

You are depending on your own righteousness (by works) to enter the kingdom.

Why is it that you all keep saying stuff like this when I and others have REPEATEDLY said otherwise. I'm not counting on "my" works, because "my" works are as fithly rags and will amount to nothing but wood, hay and stubble.

However when I die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to live out the manifested life of Christ through my members it is God that is doing the work, but He is crediting my account as if I did it myself.

That's what grace is. It's God doing for man what He requires of man and crediting him as if he did it himself. And I didn't create that defintion, but I think it speaks perfectly to grace.

 

[npetreley]

However when I die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to live out the manifested life of Christ

How nice of you to allow the Holy Spirit to work. So who gets the credit for that?

But that's a whole 'nother story. I agree with you in principle that God works in us to will and to do according to His good purpose. But Amy touched on the most important issue. The wages of sin is death, not 1,000 years in hell.

 

[J. Jump]

How nice of you to allow the Holy Spirit to work.

Sanctification is a two-way street, not a one-way street.

 

[James_Newman]

How nice of you to allow the Holy Spirit to work. So who gets the credit for that?

But that's a whole 'nother story. I agree with you in principle that God works in us to will and to do according to His good purpose. But Amy touched on the most important issue. The wages of sin is death, not 1,000 years in hell.

God can kill a man and then raise him up again.

 

[James_Newman]

Sorry to disappear on you, Wednesday night and all.

1. So if abiding is Christ is not the automatic end of everyone who believes, what must a person do to abide in Christ?

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

2. Abiding in Christ is not the automatic end of everyone who believes yet everyone who believes is promised to be raised at the last day.

a. Are we looking at two groups of saved people here? Those who abide in Christ and those who believe but do not abide in Christ but are promised to be raised at the last day.

Yes, as a believer we have to choose who we are going to serve. Most would concede that the bible distinguishes between different levels of obedience but for some reason balk at the idea of a disobedient believer. The servant that buried his talent is a disobedient servant. He knew his Lord, he knew his Lord's will, but he made excuses and did nothing.

b. So what happens when both die, the "abiding-in-Christ" believer and the "one-who-believes" in Christ believer? Where do they go?

They go to the judgment seat. Some are rewarded good things.

Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Some are rewarded bad things.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Amy.G]

Why is it that you all keep saying stuff like this when I and others have REPEATEDLY said otherwise. I'm not counting on "my" works, because "my" works are as fithly rags and will amount to nothing but wood, hay and stubble.

However when I die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to live out the manifested life of Christ through my members it is God that is doing the work, but He is crediting my account as if I did it myself.

That's what grace is. It's God doing for man what He requires of man and crediting him as if he did it himself. And I didn't create that defintion, but I think it speaks perfectly to grace.

If you stand before Christ with a handful of works, thinking they give you the righteousness to enter into the kingdom, you are going to be very disappointed.

As you said, your works (righteousness) are as filthy rags.