A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[TCGreek]

as if printing the verses around it change what it says.


James said a man is justified by works. There is no getting around that.

Why are you ignoring v.18 but building your theology on v. 24?

 

[TCGreek]

I have no problem with that, but grammar trumps context. There is no way to change 'is justified by works' into 'works prove he is justified by faith'.

1. Where did you get the idea that grammar trumps context?

2. CONTEXT! CONTEXT! The setting of everything James says is controlled by v.14.

 

[James_Newman]

James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Does that say show God your faith without your works? Yes it is impossible to show faith without works, but not impossible to have faith without works.

 

[Rufus_1611]

I don't know, I expect that at any moment they might start gnashing on me with their teeth.

Valid risk.

 

[J. Jump]

What do you suppose I will get?

I have asked this question before as well and it has gone unanswered.

What are we in danger of except a smaller piece of paradise pie according to your theology.

If this is truly wrong then we are simply sinning, but you said our sins and our punishment for them have already been taken care of by Christ. So what exactly do we have to look forward to except a few less crowns and what difference will that make when the best portion of life on earth isn't even remotely close to the worst porition of life in heaven?

Doesn't sound like anything bad to me?

 

[npetreley]

I don't know, I expect that at any moment they might start gnashing on me with their teeth.

Amy and I will not be weeping or gnashing our teeth. Now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. I work because God loves me and lives in me. I don't do it because I have to worry about punishment. If I did worry about punishment, that would show that I have lost touch with God's love.

It's all in the Bible. You could see it if you stop looking for ways to condemn believers (other than yourself, of course - Judaizers like yourself never think you're among the ones who will suffer).

 

[TCGreek]

James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Does that say show God your faith without your works? Yes it is impossible to show faith without works, but not impossible to have faith without works.

Where did you get, Grammar trumps context? I'm awaiting that answer.

 

[TCGreek]

James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Does that say show God your faith without your works? Yes it is impossible to show faith without works, but not impossible to have faith without works.

And if you have faith without works, you are on the same level as the demons (v.19). Take that up with James not me.

 

[Rufus_1611]

I have asked this question before as well and it has gone unanswered.

What are we in danger of except a smaller piece of paradise pie according to your theology.

If this is truly wrong then we are simply sinning, but you said our sins and our punishment for them have already been taken care of by Christ. So what exactly do we have to look forward to except a few less crowns and what difference will that make when the worst portion of heaven doesn't even compare to the best portion of earth.

Doesn't sound like anything bad to me?

Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

 

[James_Newman]

Where did you get, Grammar trumps context? I'm awaiting that answer.

Is that not in the rule book? Its common sense. Context can have no meaning without grammar. You can't just shout context! and change the basic rules of language. Words may derive definitions from context, but you can't change the structure of a sentence. Clinton tried that one with 'it depends on what is is'.

 

[npetreley]

I have asked this question before as well and it has gone unanswered.

What are we in danger of except a smaller piece of paradise pie according to your theology.

Why do we have to be in danger of anything at all? If you understood grace, you'd understand it's not a factor. We love Him because He first loved us, not because He threatened us with 1,000 years of hell.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Amy and I will not be weeping or gnashing our teeth. Now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. I work because God loves me and lives in me. I don't do it because I have to worry about punishment. If I did worry about punishment, that would show that I have lost touch with God's love.

It's all in the Bible. You could see it if you stop looking for ways to condemn believers (other than yourself, of course - Judaizers like yourself never think you're among the ones who will suffer).

I have never met a Kingdom Accountability believer that thinks they've got a lock on the kingdom....

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." - 1 Corinthians 10:12​

 

[James_Newman]

Judaizers like yourself

Now I don't remember telling anyone to get circumsized...

 

[TCGreek]

Is that not in the rule book? Its common sense. Context can have no meaning without grammar. You can't just shout context! and change the basic rules of language. Words may derive definitions from context, but you can't change the structure of a sentence. Clinton tried that one with 'it depends on what is is'.

1. Grammar rather is governed by context. Are we really talking about the same thing.

2. I encourage you to review your Clinton excerpt, for his folly was a combination of both, not just one thing.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Why do we have to be in danger of anything at all? If you understood grace, you'd understand it's not a factor. We love Him because He first loved us, not because He threatened us with 1,000 years of hell.

Who do you fear?

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." - Luke 12:4-5​

 

[J. Jump]

Why do we have to be in danger of anything at all?

You are the one that said we are to be accursed. That doesn't sound like something that is going to be pleasant. So what are we in danger of? What is/are the consequence(s) for being accursed?

Again is that simply a smaller slice of paradise pie or what?

 

[npetreley]

Who do you fear?

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." - Luke 12:4-5​

That was the beginning of wisdom, absolutely. But I got saved and no longer fear God, because I have been reconciled to Him by Jesus, and his love is in me. Maybe you should give it a shot? It's really nice on this side of the fence.

I still have awe and reverence for God, even a "Godly" fear, if you will, because his righteousness is beyond even my imagination. But I do not fear punishment at all. I cry, "Abba, Father".

 

[Accountable]

Do you think that the only two possibilities are ruling with Christ or spending that time in hell? There's no third option? Back up your answer with Biblical evidence.

I didn't realize we were playing tag. I thought we were debating biblical issues. You have yet to answer the question. I will wait for my turn.
Thanks.

 

[J. Jump]

You could see it if you stop looking for ways to condemn believers (other than yourself, of course - Judaizers like yourself never think you're among the ones who will suffer).

Please show me ONE time . . . JUST ONE TIME . . . where anyone has said that we have made it? JUST ONCE.

 

[npetreley]

You are the one that said we are to be accursed. That doesn't sound like something that is going to be pleasant. So what are we in danger of? What is/are the consequence(s) for being accursed?

Again is that simply a smaller slice of paradise pie or what?

Nope. It's being told by Jesus, "I never knew you" and getting tossed somewhere not for 1,000 years, but for eternity. And by "eternity" I do not mean "age-during".