A woman teaching men?

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I asked my wife's thoughts on this. Here's some good wisdom from her IMO:

"If a woman is developing a curriculum, and is being honest and Biblical, she should only be developing it for women from the get-go. If a man happens to learn lessons from this kind of curriculum in passing, then it would be fine to teach about it in Sunday School as the woman was writing to other women, and not usurping authority. It's a case of one Christian building up another.

On the other hand a woman who develops a curriculum, and from the outset purposefully makes it for men and women has already usurped teaching authority and this curriculum should never be used by anyone."

I often find myself learning things from Rachel Jankovic, or Rebekah Merkle. Both of their intentions are not to teach men, but they are still wise women with salient advise.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

So should Fundamental Baptist colleges have female instructors ?

Would that include secular subject ie English, science, math, ect
since "But you will find the following in the Bible, which clearly shows that a woman should not be teaching" (a man)

Reynolds pretty much put words to my view on that verbatim. Especially Seminary vs Non-Seminary.

In a general college I'd likely be fine with it as an individual case. I don't see an issue with a smart woman, with no other wifely/motherly duties, and with knowledge of a subject like grammar teaching at a college. She's not teaching with spiritual authority nor on spiritual matters and there is no usurpation going on.

 

[canadyjd]

I asked my wife's thoughts on this. Here's some good wisdom from her IMO:

"If a woman is developing a curriculum, and is being honest and Biblical, she should only be developing it for women from the get-go. If a man happens to learn lessons from this kind of curriculum in passing, then it would be fine to teach about it in Sunday School as the woman was writing to other women, and not usurping authority. It's a case of one Christian building up another.

On the other hand a woman who develops a curriculum, and from the outset purposefully makes it for men and women has already usurped teaching authority and this curriculum should never be used by anyone."

I often find myself learning things from Rachel Jankovic, or Rebekah Merkle. Both of their intentions are not to teach men, but they are still wise women with salient advise.

That is good advice and proof you married way up…

The only difference I have is that all curriculum should be directed toward believers. There are some subjects best left for men or women to focus on respectively, but core doctrine applies to women equally to men and I can’t see a “woman’s view’ or a”man’s view” when it comes to proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

What I want to know is how many preachers say "woman, remain silent" when one dares to speak in service. And, of course, I'd like to know how long that preacher lasts.

 

[AustinC]

I am well aware of that. There is no difference at all.

Hence my original comment:


Just because a woman isn't in-person teaching her thoughts doesn't mean a woman has not assumed authority over men.

The test isn't "Is there a woman present in the room teaching?".
The test is "Are the teachings of a woman being disseminated?".

That's why watching a recorded video of Beth Moore when she isn't present in the room is bad.
That's why a man teaching out of a Beth Moore book is bad.

If a woman writes a speech and a man reads it word for word whose ideas are being disseminated? Clearly the woman's ideas. The Bible prohibition is not on the presence of a woman, but the teachings of women.

This has nothing to do with "authority over a man." It may have to do with your pride being unwilling to learn when you find God used the "Deborah's" in his church, but it doesn't have anything to do with "authority over a man." Good curriculum is good curriculum regardless of who writes it. I'm sure many books, authored by men, have been thoroughly edited by women who made them much more readable. You just never knew it.

 

[Reynolds]

What I want to know is how many preachers say "woman, remain silent" when one dares to speak in service. And, of course, I'd like to know how long that preacher lasts.

Every SBC church I have ever been in was pretty much that way. In dealing with theological matters, women are silent in the assembly.

Macarthur deals with that passage in the video I linked.

 

[JonC]

Every SBC church I have ever been in was pretty much that way. In dealing with theological matters, women are silent in the assembly.

Macarthur deals with that passage in the video I linked.

Yea. I just want to hear a preacher say "remain silent, woman!".

 

[Salty]

Yea. I just want to hear a preacher say "remain silent, woman!".

Does that include during the singing time as well?

 

[JonC]

Does that include during the singing time as well?

Depends on who's frying the chicken for the fellowship meal.

 

[AustinC]

So, in light of the topic of the thread, with a twist.
I have a female friend who spent 30 years with Wycliffe Bible Translators. Is her translation of the Bible into a tribal language unusable by men in the tribe because a woman translated the Bible into their language?

 

[JamesL]

It did come from God. That is Paul’s point. He is asserting his apostolic authority as a messenger from God to speak in the subject.

In no way is Paul telling anyone to ignore him if they want to. Just the opposite.

peace to you

Problem is, though, your understanding is in stark contradiction to the words of Paul Himself.

Paul said "this is from me, not God"

You say "Paul was confused, wrong, lying, etc because everything he wrote was from God"

Again, heres it is plainly...

Paul: not from God
You: most certainly from God

Who shall we believe?

 

[canadyjd]

Problem is, though, your understanding is in stark contradiction to the words of Paul Himself.

Paul said "this is from me, not God"

You say "Paul was confused, wrong, lying, etc because everything he wrote was from God"

Again, heres it is plainly...

Paul: not from God
You: most certainly from God

Who shall we believe?

First, I did not say Paul was confused, wrong, lying etc” Please do not attribute such nonsense to me.

I said Paul was asserting his Apostolic authority to address the issue. That was something Paul did on a regular basis.

So we don’t derail this thread, why don’t you start another thread, post the passage and I’ll respond there.

peace to you

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

This has nothing to do with "authority over a man." It may have to do with your pride being unwilling to learn when you find God used the "Deborah's" in his church, but it doesn't have anything to do with "authority over a man." Good curriculum is good curriculum regardless of who writes it. I'm sure many books, authored by men, have been thoroughly edited by women who made them much more readable. You just never knew it.

It's amazing how you are able to add nothing to a conversation without throwing around personal attacks. That's typically a sign that your position is built on sand and is quickly sinking.

Myself and Reynolds have posted multiple verses in support of our position. We have respected Bible teachers like Macarthur directly addressing this same issue in agreement with us. So feel free to disagree, but it's clearly NOT pride and is adherence to our Lord's Word despite modern pressures to submit to feminist orthodoxy.

Are you sure you want to use Deborah as an example of female spiritual leadership for your ailing position? She was appointed as a judge when the nation of Israel was full of sin and needed to be judged. If your best example of a woman as a spiritual leader is the woman that was placed as a judge over Israel precisely as a form of judgement then I wouldn't be too excited about that.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

Yea. I just want to hear a preacher say "remain silent, woman!".

Here's a good equivalent

 

[Reynolds]

Does that include during the singing time as well?

Paul addressed that.

 

[Reynolds]

I asked my wife's thoughts on this. Here's some good wisdom from her IMO:

"If a woman is developing a curriculum, and is being honest and Biblical, she should only be developing it for women from the get-go. If a man happens to learn lessons from this kind of curriculum in passing, then it would be fine to teach about it in Sunday School as the woman was writing to other women, and not usurping authority. It's a case of one Christian building up another.

On the other hand a woman who develops a curriculum, and from the outset purposefully makes it for men and women has already usurped teaching authority and this curriculum should never be used by anyone."

I often find myself learning things from Rachel Jankovic, or Rebekah Merkle. Both of their intentions are not to teach men, but they are still wise women with salient advise.

Without going into all the issues I have with Joyce Meyer, I once heard her say that she did not want to teach men. She used to not allow men to come to her meetings but eventually did because not allowing men caused so much problems. She said she is a teacher of women. If men attend or watch her on TV, that is their choice, not hers.
I can respect that position.
She is not the CEO or manager of her ministry. Her husband is.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

Without going into all the issues I have with Joyce Meyer, I once heard her say that she did not want to teach men. She used to not allow men to come to her meetings but eventually did because not allowing men caused so much problems. She said she is a teacher of women. If men attend or watch her on TV, that is their choice, not hers.
I can respect that position.
She is not the CEO or manager of her ministry. Her husband is.

I wasn't aware of that. That raises my estimation of her quite a bit

 

[Silverhair]

But you will find the following in the Bible, which clearly shows that a woman should not be teaching. God does not restrict that to the pulpit as in the position of a Pastor, but to all teaching within the Church, Sunday School included.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Timothy 2:11-12

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Christians cannot ignore the parts of the Bible we don't like because it doesn't fit our cultural norm. God commands it. God says it through inspired word. Period. End of story.

Thanks for pointing that verse out. That is a question that really has not crossed my path. But I figure that if God wants to have women write and or teach then that is His right to do so. As Paul said in Php 14-17 "and most of the brothers and sisters...dare to speak the word with greater boldness and without fear. Some proclaim Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from goodwill...." Paul it would seem did not care who proclaimed the gospel as long as it was proclaimed. Php 1:18 "What does it matter? Just this, that Christ is proclaimed in every way, whether out of false motives or true; and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,"

While the text does say not to have women teach I did note it was Paul that said "I do not allow". 1Ti 2:12 From some of the commentaries I have read the problem may have been the disturbance caused in the early church that brought about that comment from Paul.

But if 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are both Pauline, and given the close relationship between Corinth and Ephesus, it is not really necessary to posit anything more than that Paul in two different situations involving the public speaking behavior of women took a similar tack in restricting women from engaging in a public behavior that had reached a level of abuse and was causing disruption (see further below). What we cannot tell without further probing (and some speculation) is whether this measure ran counter to another Pauline pattern, evident in some places, of allowing women greater freedom in participating in speaking ministries. In any case, it should be noted that in both Corinth and Ephesus the measure taken apparently sought to resolve or avert a disturbance. The New International Commentary on the New Testament 1 Timothy 2:8-15

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Most Baptists will agree that a female should not be a pastor.
Many Baptists will believe that a female should not teach a mens class
No!
BUT

how about a woman who writes a SS lesson, but taught by a man.
Would you find that to be acceptable?

Why or why not?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What about a woman teaching under the authority of Jesus?

Who gives her such authority… certainly not Paul