Abc 20/20

[matt wade]

Matt, is is no secret that I am prejudiced against most IFB colleges and churches. It took courage for me to post my story here, as I knew some, like you, would be more offended by my prejudice than the fact that the abuse took place and someone is still hurting from it.

The fact that you are angry, not at the sin, but at the prejudice that has resulted from the sin, speaks volumes to me and to others reading here.

I'm sorry if you believe that the moment you say "I was abused as a child and the IFB church I was at enabled it." that you think the entire conversation should cease. Should we all just stop talking about this topic right this moment and do nothing but offer our sympathy for what happened to you as a child?

You still haven't addressed the issue of why you don't also blame all fathers? If you are able to make a decision about all IFB churches based on your limited experience, why not make the same decision about all fathers? What about your husband? Since your father abused you, your husband must also be an abuser, correct?

If you can't see the problem with your logic, then maybe you should do as another poster suggested and leave the thread.

 

[Zenas]

I'm sorry if you believe that the moment you say "I was abused as a child and the IFB church I was at enabled it." that you think the entire conversation should cease. Should we all just stop talking about this topic right this moment and do nothing but offer our sympathy for what happened to you as a child?

You still haven't addressed the issue of why you don't also blame all fathers? If you are able to make a decision about all IFB churches based on your limited experience, why not make the same decision about all fathers? What about your husband? Since your father abused you, your husband must also be an abuser, correct?

If you can't see the problem with your logic, then maybe you should do as another poster suggested and leave the thread.

If you and the other IFB apologists would stand back and actually read what she abc has posted, you would see that she is not blaming all IFB churches. She is, however, insisting that this story is true because she went through much the same thing. She is also insisting that culture prevailing in IFB churches, where all the members kowtow to the pastor as if he were the pope, enables these horrible tragedies to take place with nothing being done to see that they never happen again.

 

[abcgrad94]

I'm sorry if you believe that the moment you say "I was abused as a child and the IFB church I was at enabled it." that you think the entire conversation should cease. Should we all just stop talking about this topic right this moment and do nothing but offer our sympathy for what happened to you as a child?

You still haven't addressed the issue of why you don't also blame all fathers? If you are able to make a decision about all IFB churches based on your limited experience, why not make the same decision about all fathers? What about your husband? Since your father abused you, your husband must also be an abuser, correct?

If you can't see the problem with your logic, then maybe you should do as another poster suggested and leave the thread.

I never suggested we stop talking about the topic.

As to your other two paragraphs, I owe you no explanation for anything. In fact, you, sir, owe me a public apology for your mean spirited comments. If you're hoping that I'll shut up and quietly slink off into the background so certain IFB's here can continue to protest their innocence while attacking those they've already wounded, you've got another thing coming. Your hate-filled, unkind comments demonstrate exactly why I am prejudiced against most IFB's. Kindly don't address me again, unless it's to apologize. I have nothing further to say to you.

Mods, I'm sending a request for you to close this thread. It is not edifying.

 

[tinytim]

Matt, is is no secret that I am prejudiced against most IFB colleges and churches. It took courage for me to post my story here, as I knew some, like you, would be more offended by my prejudice than the fact that the abuse took place and someone is still hurting from it.

The fact that you are angry, not at the sin, but at the prejudice that has resulted from the sin, speaks volumes to me and to others reading here.

Matt is typifying the average IFB attitude.. they are so enamored by being IFB that they deny anything like this could ever happen, although many Christians run from IFB churches because of this attitude...

They are more concerned about reputation than the victim... thus they put up defenses, and protect the offenders.

 

[Don]

I just wish that godly people would stop trying to defend sin in their camp (whichever one it be) and instead root it out and destroy it.

20/20 did us all a service. It brought an admitted problem out into the open.

The question here is not- did ABC did something bad? The question is- will godly people stand up and do the right thing by protecting the innocent. Protecting the innocent MUST take precedence over protecting our 'badge' (IFB, SBC, etc), ministry, job, or reputation.

Please give your words some thought. This is an "ends justifies the means" type of argument.

In order to clean up police corruption, do we assume all police are corrupt? In order to clean up all IFB churches, do we assume all IFB churches are in need of cleaning?

Yes, we need to root out sin. We need bible colleges that will teach that the pastor is not a "Man of God," but a man for God, and representing God. We need bible colleges to teach exactly what someone else here has already said: Pastors should be teaching their flocks to get into the Word, and not take someone else's word for it.

And for those that think we shouldn't "waste" our time pointing out those men and churches that are hiding behind Christ's name, we ALL have a duty and responsibility to protect those that could be hurt by these wolves in sheep's clothing.

Do I retract my earlier statements about Chuck Phelps? Yes, because legally, he's put forth statements that indicate he took steps; and there's a difference of opinion between the recollections of the young lady and a few prior members, and the young lady's mother, Phelps, and a few other prior members. Did Phelps handle the situation correctly? Not by a long shot; but until it's proven that he actually did the things the young lady is accusing him of, we're legally bound to go with "innocent until proven guilty."

Would I stay in that church? Not until it was proven that the environment is actually safe for all members, especially the young ones and those that can't/aren't able to protect themselves.

 

[matt wade]

Matt is typifying the average IFB attitude.. they are so enamored by being IFB that they deny anything like this could ever happen, although many Christians run from IFB churches because of this attitude...

They are more concerned about reputation than the victim... thus they put up defenses, and protect the offenders.

I'm not denying something like this could happen. I'm not denying that it has happened in IFB churches. What I an denying is this is typical for IFB churches, as you and others submit. This is not typical at all for IFB churches.

Similar things have happened in SBC churches, should we classify all SBC churches like is being done to IFB churches?

 

[Aaron]

Matt, logic shall not avail you in this thread. The women and the effeminate are married to their opinions, and their arguments are their offspring. It doesn't matter that in reality the 20/20 story was merely a hatchet job. It doesn't matter that the whole story is known and that the minister and the church didn't cover it up (or handle it improperly for that matter).

They know what they think and whom they hate, and that's that.

 

[menageriekeeper]

ABCgrad, logic shall not avail you in this thread. The traits of SOME women-hating IFB men are married to the protection of "their church" and their arguements are their offspring. It doesn't matter that in reality the 20/20 story revealed a serious problem in how SOME IFB churches are run and thereby revealed a flaw in their theology (that women are to be completely under the thumb of men in spite of the fact that SOME of those men abuse the responsibility that God gave them because these submissive women have no one to go to when a problem of this nature arises). It doesn't matter that the whole story is NOT known and what we do know points to the fact that the matter could have been better handled (as the preacher now admits) and that the church in question did indeed let the matter sit in secrecy for 13 years before members began to ask serious questions.

They know whta they think, and whom they hate and that's that.



(Roger, JoJ, and Don being clear opposites to the SOME described above. Just for clarification this post does not refer to them in any shape or form.)

 

[Grace&Truth]

Sorry if Canady isn't there any longer. I'll stand corrected. But if you will stand corrected - It would be Libel, not Slander - but being only my personal opinions and thoughts, it is neither. Anyway, maybe you missed it but Marquette Manor was prominently featured on the 20/20 report so yes, they do come into the equation. I still want you to notice that they all have the same common denominator - BJU. Well, except for Schaap, he is just an ranting dolt.

Are you saying that these men are all the same because they all attended BJU? Also what do the Van Gelderens have to do with it? They were not mentioned on 20/20 and I believe their were at least 1 or 2 Pastors at MM after Pastor Van Geldren Sr. Pastored before Pastor Canady. And yes it is Slander to bring their names into this discussion when they were not involved and to link their names to this because they all attended BJU. You are Slandering them by association.

Slander
SLA'NDER, n.

1. A false tale or report maliciously uttered. and tending to injure the reputation of another by lessening him in the esteem of his fellow citizens, by exposing min to impeachment and punishment, or by impairing his means of lining; defamation. Slander, that worst of poisons, ever finds an easy entrance to ignoble minds.

 

[matt wade]

ABCgrad, logic shall not avail you in this thread. The traits of SOME women-hating IFB men are married to the protection of "their church" and their arguements are their offspring. It doesn't matter that in reality the 20/20 story revealed a serious problem in how SOME IFB churches are run and thereby revealed a flaw in their theology (that women are to be completely under the thumb of men in spite of the fact that SOME of those men abuse the responsibility that God gave them because these submissive women have no one to go to when a problem of this nature arises). It doesn't matter that the whole story is NOT known and what we do know points to the fact that the matter could have been better handled (as the preacher now admits) and that the church in question did indeed let the matter sit in secrecy for 13 years before members began to ask serious questions.

I haven't once commented on whether or not this particular IFB church did anything wrong or not. I don't have all the facts and I haven't paid very close attention to it. I, in no way, believe that just because a church is IFB that it is immune to have serious problems. All churches, regardless of label, are susceptible to having a whole range of problems.

I'll state my problem once again, since so many seem to miss it. It is wrong to group together all IFB churches because of the failure of a few. If we are going to demonize churches because of a failure of a handful, then every type of church in the world could be demonized.

Every IFB church I have ever been a member of has been a loving, compassionate church. I know of a IFB church in my city that I would absolutely not attend because the pastor is the king and he rules with an iron fist. He is a mean, horrible man and gives Christians a bad name. I know the bad IFB churches exist. I know that bad churches of every type exist. Bad IFB churches are not the norm, but the exception.

 

[tinytim]

I haven't once commented on whether or not this particular IFB church did anything wrong or not. I don't have all the facts and I haven't paid very close attention to it. I, in no way, believe that just because a church is IFB that it is immune to have serious problems. All churches, regardless of label, are susceptible to having a whole range of problems.

I'll state my problem once again, since so many seem to miss it. It is wrong to group together all IFB churches because of the failure of a few. If we are going to demonize churches because of a failure of a handful, then every type of church in the world could be demonized.

Every IFB church I have ever been a member of has been a loving, compassionate church. I know of a IFB church in my city that I would absolutely not attend because the pastor is the king and he rules with an iron fist. He is a mean, horrible man and gives Christians a bad name. I know the bad IFB churches exist. I know that bad churches of every type exist. Bad IFB churches are not the norm, but the exception.

Here in WV the bad are the norm... I grew up in them... especially the IFB fellowship in central wv... they are KJVO, women hating, bigots...

I have Never been to an IFB church associated with that fellowship that wasn't hateful.

 

[jaigner]

Of course, you've gone ahead and taken the additional step for us and slandered fathers within IFB churches. Congrats to you for achieving that goal!

The IFB (and thoroughly unbiblical) mindset that makes men prophet, priest and king of their homes lends itself easily to emotional abuse of women and children. And I know what I've seen in my part of the country. It would be unfair to make a blanket statement, perhaps, but from my own experience, a generalized statement would be fair.

Oh, and it's not slander if it's true. And it's actually not slander if it's written instead of spoken.

 

[dcorbett]

Here in WV the bad are the norm... I grew up in them... especially the IFB fellowship in central wv... they are KJVO, women hating, bigots...
I have Never been to an IFB church associated with that fellowship that wasn't hateful.

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFB churches. You cannot judge every church by your narrow experience OR by the leftist media sensationalism.

The men in MY IFB church LOVE THEIR WIVES AND RESPECT THEM MORE THAN THE MEN IN THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH I GREW UP IN! I have never seen a woman disrespected or abused. The scripture that talks of loving your wife as Christ loves the church is the example preached to our congregation.

Why would ANY born-again believer put down and criticize another born-again believer?

 

[John of Japan]

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFB churches. You cannot judge every church by your narrow experience OR by the leftist media sensationalism.

I estimate 10,000 IFB churches in America alone, with maybe 6000 missionaries and thousands of churches in other countries. My mission board alone has over 6000 churches listed as supporting our 350 or more missionaries. So I always think it to be ignorant when I read generalizations such as have been on this thread. Which IFB group do they mean: BBF, FBF, WBF, GARBC, Southwide, Hokkaido Fundamental Pastors Fellowship (our group here in Japan), etc., etc.

It's like saying, "All Methodists are...." I'm supported by an independent Methodist church which left the United Methodists when they decided to ordain homosexuals.

 

[John of Japan]

The IFB (and thoroughly unbiblical) mindset that makes men prophet, priest and king of their homes lends itself easily to emotional abuse of women and children. And I know what I've seen in my part of the country. It would be unfair to make a blanket statement, perhaps, but from my own experience, a generalized statement would be fair.

Yes, it is unfair.

Oh, and it's not slander if it's true. And it's actually not slander if it's written instead of spoken.

Actually, yes, slander laws cover written statements. People are sued all the time for written slander.

 

[jaigner]

Yes, it is unfair.

Actually, yes, slander laws cover written statements. People are sued all the time for written slander.

Written is libel, not slander.

And it's not either if it's true by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[matt wade]

Written is libel, not slander.

And it's not either if it's true by any stretch of the imagination.

So, I could write about how you are actually a catholic nun that dresses up as a man and pretends to be a baptist at the church you attend and that would be ok? My imagination stretches that far.

 

[tinytim]

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of IFB churches. You cannot judge every church by your narrow experience OR by the leftist media sensationalism.

The men in MY IFB church LOVE THEIR WIVES AND RESPECT THEM MORE THAN THE MEN IN THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH I GREW UP IN! I have never seen a woman disrespected or abused. The scripture that talks of loving your wife as Christ loves the church is the example preached to our congregation.

Why would ANY born-again believer put down and criticize another born-again believer?

Debbie, I am agreeing with you.. . But I am pointing out what has happened in MY EXPERIENCE.. and because I EXPERIENCED it.. I KNOW what happpend..

Are all IFBs the same.. OF COURSE NOT!..
Some are Ifbs, some are iFbs, some are ifBs... (Think about it.. even in the intitials, IFB... some put more emphasis on the words INdependent, Fundamental or Baptist than others...)

Are IFBs Christians... some are..
Are SBCs christians.. Some are
Are ABCs Christians... some are....

BUT knowing what I know by my experience in WV and admittedly that being in about maybe 50-75 churches... I would never be a WV IFB.

OF course that is MY opinion.

And I really again want to agree with you last statment... "Why would ANY born-again believer put down and criticize another born-again believer?"

Because this is what I see the IFBs (HERE IN WV.. and some on this board doing)... when they discuss other interpretations of the Bible...

For instance:
how many times have you seen and IFB say a woman pastor is not in the will of God?
That is doing what you just said you were against..
They put down a fellow born-again believer.

How many times have you seen a IFB slam someone for not using the KJV
How many times have you seen a IFB slam a Christian Rock/rap singer?

HOW Many times have you seen IFBs slam interpretive dance in the church?

Get my drift...
IFBs seem to me to be more proud of what they are against than proud of what they are for...

Growing up in IFB, our mantra was.. ."Take a stand against...."
Then we wouldd list a number of things...
NIV, women pastors, women deacons, women wearing pants, women wearing bobbed hair, movie houses, card playing, dancing, christian rock, anything that the Catholic church did, etc...

I could go on, but you all get my drift..
I love my IFb brothers and sisters.. but so many are blinded by what they have been taught as the truth that they fail to see liberty in Christ.

 

[jaigner]

So, I could write about how you are actually a catholic nun that dresses up as a man and pretends to be a baptist at the church you attend and that would be ok? My imagination stretches that far.

That's pretty funny, actually. You're really a funny guy, Matty W.

But I'm sure you understand that "stretch of imagination" is an expression. Since many Baptists have trouble thinking in any sort of abstract terms, I should have been more plainspoken.

And nobody would believe that about me, anyway.

 

[jaigner]

I have never seen a woman disrespected or abused. The scripture that talks of loving your wife as Christ loves the church is the example preached to our congregation.

This may well be, and I appreciate your statement about the SBC, because I've seen a lot of the same thing. Do I know for sure that is happening in your church? Of course not, but anytime a father is set up to be prophet, priest and king in his family, there is the potential for emotional abuse, even by well-meaning men.

But I would also say, and I've seen this happen, many men think they are being loving to their wives and many wives think they're being loved, when in reality, they're being repressed and being denied the chance to be everything God has created them to be.

And I would also second what Tim has said. There are criticisms made on both sides over issues they are very certain and feel strongly about. And this is more of a observation from what I've seen. If you feel like you're in the right place, there's probably not much I can say to change that.

I could go on, but you all get my drift. I love my IFb brothers and sisters.. but so many are blinded by what they have been taught as the truth that they fail to see liberty in Christ.

This is one of the most helpful statements in the whole thread. Legalism (which I've experienced from nearly all the IFB people I have known in one way or another...I'm sure not all are like that, just most of those I've known) is a parching, life-crushing attitude for all involved. It's also a false gospel, expecting us to earn peace with God. It's bowing at an altar of good behavior, which I was brought up to do and it nearly killed my spirit.