Abortion question

[JohnDeereFan]

Hi Winman, one of us is clearly wrong. Scripture says we were made sinners, not made predisposed to sin innocents. I have rebutted all your arguments, but all you do re-post them and ignore the rebuttals.

So far, nobody has addressed the two verses I cited: Ps 51:5 and Ps 58:3.

 

[Zaac]

So far, nobody has addressed the two verses I cited: Ps 51:5 and Ps 58:3.

Ahhh, so it IS addressed.:thumbs:

Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place. Psalm 51:5

Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. Psalm 58:3

I think it's human nature to automatically want babies and the young to be considered innocent or sinless.

But Scripture clearly tells us that ALL have sinned. And if we believe that life begins at conception, those unborn are part of the ALL.

That's why I have said that I don't see anything in Scripture that says babies because they are babies or unborn automatically go to heaven.

I do however believe that a just God makes provisions for these through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ just as He would for a mentally challenged person.

 

[Winman]

So far, nobody has addressed the two verses I cited: Ps 51:5 and Ps 58:3.

I have addressed these verses probably dozens of times. David is not saying all persons are born sinners in Psa 51:5, he is saying he was formed in sin, that is, a sinful world, and that he was conceived in iniquity. There is some controversy with David's mother, David had two sisters whose father was Nahash the Ammonite. So, David's mother was considered less than pure.

As for Psa 58:3, this is obvious hyperbole. No child is born with the ability to speak. And when he does speak, he learns his language from his parents, which would argue he learns to lie from his parents.

You would also have to interpret the following verses literally, and believe all children are born poisonous like an adder, have huge teeth like a young lion, and melt like snails. You would also have to believe that David prayed for all babies everywhere to perish.

And if you read, David was only saying the "wicked" are born speaking lies. If you read the rest of the Psalm, David speaks about the "righteous" and "my people". So, David is not even speaking of all men in verse 3.

Neither of these verses are teaching Original Sin. Not even close.

 

[Winman]

Hi Winman, one of us is clearly wrong. Scripture says we were made sinners, not made predisposed to sin innocents. I have rebutted all your arguments, but all you do re-post them and ignore the rebuttals.

Have a nice day.

Abortion is murder, and anyone who argues for sacrificing children so they might remain pleasing to God is an abomination to the Lord.

If you believe all men were made sinners unconditionally by Adam, then you must likewise believe all men were made righteous unconditionally by Jesus.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You have to treat each half of each verse equally here, so if all men are unconditionally made sinners by Adam, then likewise all men are unconditionally made righteous by Jesus.

Of course this is error and leads to universalism. The correct interpretation is that all men are CONDITIONALLY made sinners when they sin like Adam sinned, and all men who CONDITIONALLY believe as Jesus believed his Father are made righteous.

Romans 5 is simply teaching that Adam and Jesus were legal precedents. All men who sin like Adam are judged sinners and condemned to death as Adam was, all men who believe like Jesus believed are imputed righteous and given life.

You got one thing right, one of us is wrong.

 

[Zaac]

I have addressed these verses probably dozens of times. David is not saying all persons are born sinners in Psa 51:5, he is saying he was formed in sin, that is, a sinful world, and that he was conceived in iniquity. There is some controversy with David's mother, David had two sisters whose father was Nahash the Ammonite. So, David's mother was considered less than pure.

But THAT is not what the Scripture says. I always tell people that in order to keep from authoring confusion, you have to deal with what the words on the page say FIRST.

And the words on the page say "sinful from the time my mother conceived me". That says nothing about being conceived in iniquity. That says Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

He's acknowledging that he was a sinner at conception.

 

[agedman]

I think it would be wise to state that I posted this thread because of two reasons:

1) What would the general BB folks would make of such arguments. I thought the arguments foolish when I heard them, too.

2) See if there was a common scriptural principle from those who responded. The principle that God does not condone murder.

It is important that those reading the thread understand that I am opposed to abortion except for very narrow areas which are rare and indeed each area may continue to fade as medical advances are made.

They would include:

When the baby has succumbed through nature and needs removed for the safety of the mother.
When the viability of the mother is at such a risk that the child and the mother will perish unless removed.
When the child is not in the womb but attached to the tubing.
When the child is not viable (no brain, no lungs...) outside of the womb.
And a few others in which life is just not going to be a part of the child.
​

I realize that there are all kinds of arguments for and against the statements above, and it is most important, as science makes advances, to look back over the list of exceptions for adjustment.

For instance: When I was much younger, there was no medical way of keeping a mortally injured perhaps brain dead mother alive long enough to have a child born - usually they both died. There are more options available now, and the results are more and more a marvelous gift of life.

I want to thank those who posted and expressed a certain outrage with the OP.

It is arguments such as the OP present that the shallow and unlearned believers are buying into. It is the purpose of the enemy to create distractions and divide.

Personally, I do hold that every baby that is aborted is under the wondrous grace of God, that is no excuse for aborting the innocent. Purposed murder is not excusable for it is premeditated. The Scriptures address this issue in the law concerning one who hurts a woman to the point the child does not live.

My prayer for women who have had abortions and are now believers that they will find great peace and understanding that what they once were, by the grace and authority of God, they are no longer.

 

[Winman]

But THAT is not what the Scripture says. I always tell people that in order to keep from authoring confusion, you have to deal with what the words on the page say FIRST.

And the words on the page say "sinful from the time my mother conceived me". That says nothing about being conceived in iniquity. That says Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

He's acknowledging that he was a sinner at conception.

Obviously we are not reading the same book.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Your version says something very different from the King James Bible doesn't it??

So much for those who say the MVs say the same thing as the KJB. :laugh:

Again, most scholars believe David had a different mother than his older brothers. He also had two sisters whose father was not a Jew.

1 Chr 2:13 And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third,
14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth,
15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh:
16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.

As you see, David had two sisters named Zeruiah and Abigail. Their father was Nahash the Ammonite.

2 Sam 17:25 And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.

When Nahash the Ammonite died, David showed kindness to his son because Nahash (a man know for his cruelty) had shown kindness to him. Some believe this was because of David's mother.

When Samuel came to Jesse and asked to see his sons, twice he did not present David, but made David keep the sheep while all his other sons attended the feast. David did not look like his brothers who were tall and handsome, David was small and ruddy. Only when Samuel insisted did Jesse finally present David, who Samuel annointed with oil as king.

So, there is some controversy about David's mother and his conception. David was treated as the black sheep in his family.

 

[DHK]

I have addressed these verses probably dozens of times. David is not saying all persons are born sinners in Psa 51:5, he is saying he was formed in sin, that is, a sinful world, and that he was conceived in iniquity. There is some controversy with David's mother, David had two sisters whose father was Nahash the Ammonite. So, David's mother was considered less than pure.

Your explanation is completely untenable and out of character with the entire psalm. David isn't speaking of his mother, hardly even referring to her. This is a psalm of repentance. It is an expression of deep sorrow, of establishing his relationship again with the Lord. His thoughts are only on him, his sin, and God, and NOT on any other person. To even suggest that he would be thinking of his mother is ludicrous.

The meaning of the verse is more in line with the meaning of the preceding verse:
Psalms 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:...
--Then he says: Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
--This is a sorrowful repentant prayer of David establishing his relationship with God. He is not even thinking of his mother. It is an expression that refers back to his own conception where he realizes his own sinfulness from his birth or even before. He is not thinking of or trying to prove total depravity of the human race. He is establishing his own guilt and sinfulness before God, for without such guilt there can be no forgiveness.
"Against thee and thee only have I sinned and done this evil in thy sight."
"I was shapen in iniquity..." He was formed in the womb, and from that time onward had a sinful nature. He admits this before God, for it is before God that he is THAT sinful. All he can think about is his own sinfulness.

To lay at the feet of David an alleged accusation of the unfaithfulness of his own mother in this time of grief is a horrible accusation and totally out of character with the Psalm. It is ludicrous. For one to think that it would have such a meaning is beyond comprehension. You are not reading the psalm; comprehending the psalm. Read it with pathos, understanding, thinking as David would be thinking. (I assure you; he would not be thinking of his mother [or her sinfulness] at this time). It is his grief and sinfulness that he is confessing and repenting of.

 

[Winman]

Your explanation is completely untenable and out of character with the entire psalm. David isn't speaking of his mother, hardly even referring to her. This is a psalm of repentance. It is an expression of deep sorrow, of establishing his relationship again with the Lord. His thoughts are only on him, his sin, and God, and NOT on any other person. To even suggest that he would be thinking of his mother is ludicrous.

The meaning of the verse is more in line with the meaning of the preceding verse:
Psalms 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:...
--Then he says: Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
--This is a sorrowful repentant prayer of David establishing his relationship with God. He is not even thinking of his mother. It is an expression that refers back to his own conception where he realizes his own sinfulness from his birth or even before. He is not thinking of or trying to prove total depravity of the human race. He is establishing his own guilt and sinfulness before God, for without such guilt there can be no forgiveness.
"Against thee and thee only have I sinned and done this evil in thy sight."
"I was shapen in iniquity..." He was formed in the womb, and from that time onward had a sinful nature. He admits this before God, for it is before God that he is THAT sinful. All he can think about is his own sinfulness.

To lay at the feet of David an alleged accusation of the unfaithfulness of his own mother in this time of grief is a horrible accusation and totally out of character with the Psalm. It is ludicrous. For one to think that it would have such a meaning is beyond comprehension. You are not reading the psalm; comprehending the psalm. Read it with pathos, understanding, thinking as David would be thinking. (I assure you; he would not be thinking of his mother [or her sinfulness] at this time). It is his grief and sinfulness that he is confessing and repenting of.

It is your explanation that is out of context. In the first 4 verses David repeatedly confesses his personal guilt for sinning with Bathsheba.

Then you would have folks believe that David would suddenly change coruse and blame his sin on being born a sinner! This would be an EXCUSE for sin!!

And that is all Original Sin is, an excuse for sin. How can any man truly repent if he believes he was compelled to sin because God cursed him to be born with a sin nature??

 

[DHK]

It is your explanation that is out of context. In the first 4 verses David repeatedly confesses his personal guilt for sinning with Bathsheba.

Then you would have folks believe that David would suddenly change coruse and blame his sin on being born a sinner! This would be an EXCUSE for sin!!

And that is all Original Sin is, an excuse for sin. How can any man truly repent if he believes he was compelled to sin because God cursed him to be born with a sin nature??

AGAINST THEE ONLY HAVE I SINNED.

David does not mention Bathsheba. David mentions only himself. It is not Bathsheba, whom he raped, not Uriah, whom he murdered, not his mother (completely innocent of this sin), but David alone who confesses to these heinous crimes before God.
He does not blame anyone but himself and pours out his heart before the Lord in repentance.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I have addressed these verses probably dozens of times. David is not saying all persons are born sinners in Psa 51:5, he is saying he was formed in sin, that is, a sinful world, and that he was conceived in iniquity. There is some controversy with David's mother, David had two sisters whose father was Nahash the Ammonite. So, David's mother was considered less than pure.

As for Psa 58:3, this is obvious hyperbole. No child is born with the ability to speak. And when he does speak, he learns his language from his parents, which would argue he learns to lie from his parents.

You would also have to interpret the following verses literally, and believe all children are born poisonous like an adder, have huge teeth like a young lion, and melt like snails. You would also have to believe that David prayed for all babies everywhere to perish.

And if you read, David was only saying the "wicked" are born speaking lies. If you read the rest of the Psalm, David speaks about the "righteous" and "my people". So, David is not even speaking of all men in verse 3.

Neither of these verses are teaching Original Sin. Not even close.

Interesting interpretation. Wrong, but interesting.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not want the question to be hurtful in any way.

Nor do I want some to assume I am in favor of abortion without cause (health of the unborn and life of the mother).

So here is the premiss and question:

First, it is assumed that all babies that die go to heaven.

Second, it is assumed that all who grow to the age of accountability (using a good Baptist term) are responsible for their own lost estate and without Christ will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Question:

Is it righteous to prevent the absolute certainty of one going to heaven by preventing the ability of being aborted?

No, for that would still be murder, and God will not excuse one sin to makesure that provides heaven for another!

But good news is that the Lord would still be right in who gets to heaven, regardless if aborted or not!

 

[Winman]

AGAINST THEE ONLY HAVE I SINNED.

David does not mention Bathsheba. David mentions only himself. It is not Bathsheba, whom he raped, not Uriah, whom he murdered, not his mother (completely innocent of this sin), but David alone who confesses to these heinous crimes before God.
He does not blame anyone but himself and pours out his heart before the Lord in repentance.

I beg your pardon, did you read verse 1?

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

This is one reason this Psalm should not be taken literally, do you really believe David sinned against God only? Did not David sin against Uriah, Bathsheba's husband? Did not David sin against his wife and his family, and his nation?

This Psalm is not to be taken literally, you cannot wash away a person's sins with hyssop.

Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Do you believe God literally broke David's bones?

Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

It is clear David is using figurative language here that should not be taken literally. So there is no way verse 5 should be interpreted to teach that all men are born sinners.

 

[Yeshua1]

I beg your pardon, did you read verse 1?

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

This is one reason this Psalm should not be taken literally, do you really believe David sinned against God only? Did not David sin against Uriah, Bathsheba's husband? Did not David sin against his wife and his family, and his nation?

This Psalm is not to be taken literally, you cannot wash away a person's sins with hyssop.

Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Do you believe God literally broke David's bones?

Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

It is clear David is using figurative language here that should not be taken literally. So there is no way verse 5 should be interpreted to teach that all men are born sinners.

ALL sin is in the ultimate sense against God alone!

 

[Winman]

Interesting interpretation. Wrong, but interesting.

No, if you are going to take verse 3 literally, then you ought to take the verses that follow verse 3 literally also.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.
10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

First, note that verse 3 is speaking of only the "wicked". It is not speaking of all men. This is made very clear as David speaks of "the righteous" in verse 10.

If verse 3 is literal, then you must believe verse 4 that all children are poisonous like an adder. You must also believe they are deaf.

If verse 3 is literal, then you must believe that babies are born with a mouthful of huge teeth like a young lion in verse 6.

If verse 3 is literal, then you must believe that babies melt like snails as shown in verses 7 and 8.

You must also believe that David wants all children to pass away as shown in verse 8, and that David wants them to be killed by a tornado (vs. 9).

All of these examples show why it would be ridiculous to form doctrine from Psa 58:3. Again, both hyperbole and figurative language is being used here.

No baby is born able to speak. Babies begin to utter their first words around one year old, most babies do not put words together until they are nearly two years old.

And what language do all babies speak? They speak the language of their parents that shows they learned to speak from their parents. Likewise they would learn lies from their parents as well. Scripture supports this view;

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

The scriptures say our behavior or "vain conversation" was received by "tradition" from our fathers. Children learn sin from their family and friends around them.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

No, if you are going to take verse 3 literally, then you ought to take the verses that follow verse 3 literally also.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.
10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

First, note that verse 3 is speaking of only the "wicked". It is not speaking of all men. This is made very clear as David speaks of "the righteous" in verse 10.

If verse 3 is literal, then you must believe verse 4 that all children are poisonous like an adder. You must also believe they are deaf.

If verse 3 is literal, then you must believe that babies are born with a mouthful of huge teeth like a young lion in verse 6.

If verse 3 is literal, then you must believe that babies melt like snails as shown in verses 7 and 8.

You must also believe that David wants all children to pass away as shown in verse 8, and that David wants them to be killed by a tornado (vs. 9).

All of these examples show why it would be ridiculous to form doctrine from Psa 58:3. Again, both hyperbole and figurative language is being used here.

No baby is born able to speak. Babies begin to utter their first words around one year old, most babies do not put words together until they are nearly two years old.

And what language do all babies speak? They speak the language of their parents that shows they learned to speak from their parents. Likewise they would learn lies from their parents as well. Scripture supports this view;

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

The scriptures say our behavior or "vain conversation" was received by "tradition" from our fathers. Children learn sin from their family and friends around them.

Interesting interpretation. Wrong, but interesting.

 

[Winman]

ALL sin is in the ultimate sense against God alone!

All sin is against God of course. But when you commit adultery as David did, you sin against the spouse of your lover, you sin against their children, you sin against your wife and your entire family, your church, and everyone who knows you. We have a responsibility to be a good example to all men.

The point is, Psalm 51 should not be taken literally. You can't pull verse 5 out of context and attempt to teach Original Sin with this verse. It is not speaking of all men, and it is not saying David was born a sinner. It is saying David was formed in a sinful world, and that in sin his mother did conceive him. It is possible he was conceived out of wedlock for example.

All you have to do is substitute almost any words and it is clear this verse is speaking of David's mother, not David;

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Watch what happens when we substitute words for shapen, iniquity, sin and conceive;

5 Behold, I was beaten in anger; and in wrath did my mother whip me.

It instantly becomes clear that verse 5 is speaking of David's mother, not David. So this verse cannot be teaching that he was born sinful, it is speaking about his mother's actions.

 

[Winman]

Interesting interpretation. Wrong, but interesting.

Wow, what a powerful and convincing refutation. :laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

Interesting interpretation. Wrong, but interesting.

No, it is exactly the right interpretation. Imagine that

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Wow, what a powerful and convincing refutation. :laugh:

Actually, it was more of a mockery than a refutation. A refutation would mean I care.