saturneptune
New Member
Every post you make is a mockery
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Abortion question
- Thread starter agedman
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Every post you make is a mockery
Actually, it was more of a mockery than a refutation. A refutation would mean I care.
You don't have to convince me that you don't care, I believe you. You only care about Calvinism, not what the scriptures say.
Every post you make is a mockery
No, not really. I've made some very substantive posts to discuss some very serious issues and questions.
But it's good to know you're still up to your old ways.
You don't have to convince me that you don't care, I believe you. You only care about Calvinism, not what the scriptures say.
If you say so.
saturneptune
New Member
No, not really. I've made some very substantive posts to discuss some very serious issues and questions.
But it's good to know you're still up to your old ways.
Yes, I am going to get banned and I am taking you with me.
If you say so.
No, YOU said so, you said you don't care. You are the one who introduced Psa 58:3 as evidence for Original Sin. When I showed this scripture should not be used for doctrine as it is obvious hyperbole and figurative language, your only response is that you don't care.
You didn't even attempt to refute me, not that you actually could.
Yes, I am going to get banned and I am taking you with me.
Well, it's good that you've set a goal for yourself.
Good luck with that.
Now can we please get back to the topic?
Yes, I am going to get banned and I am taking you with me.
You should not get yourself banned for him. You need to just ignore him.
You can't let folks know where your goat is tied up, as they will go there and get him.
Debate the subject, offer input, but don't argue with these guys.
saturneptune
New Member
Well, it's good that you've set a goal for yourself.
Good luck with that.
Now can we please get back to the topic?
Nothing to do with luck. I have enough confidence in the moderators to hold you accountable.
Psalm 51:
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Can I take this one literally?
Sure, but that makes sense. Washing away sin with hyssop does not make sense, so should not be taken literally.
If David is confessing his personal sin, would it make sense to blame it on being born a sinner? What kind of confession is that?
Does that make sense?
Sure, but that makes sense. Washing away sin with hyssop does not make sense, so should not be taken literally.
If David is confessing his personal sin, would it make sense to blame it on being born a sinner? What kind of confession is that?
Does that make sense?
OOOOOhhhh.... so it's NOT all figurative? hmm...
51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Don't chop it up... and you have no problems. After pleading to be cleansed, David makes REAL acknowledgements of his sin... starting in vs. 3 and CONTINUING THROUGH 5 and 6.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Don't chop it up... and you have no problems. After pleading to be cleansed, David makes REAL acknowledgements of his sin... starting in vs. 3 and CONTINUING THROUGH 5 and 6.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sure, but that makes sense. Washing away sin with hyssop does not make sense, so should not be taken literally.
If David is confessing his personal sin, would it make sense to blame it on being born a sinner? What kind of confession is that?
Does that make sense?
No, your interpretation doesn't make sense at all.
Where did you start interpreting BEHOLD to mean BECAUSE?
No, your interpretation doesn't make sense at all.
Where did you start interpreting BEHOLD to mean BECAUSE?
I didn't know that I did interpret behold to mean because. Can you show where I said that?
51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Don't chop it up... and you have no problems. After pleading to be cleansed, David makes REAL acknowledgements of his sin... starting in vs. 3 and CONTINUING THROUGH 5 and 6.
Who said David did not acknowledge his sin? Not I, I clearly said David repeatedly confessed his PERSONAL sin with Bathsheba in verses 1-4.
That's why it does not make sense to blame his sin on being born a sinner in verse 5.
If David was compelled to sin by his sin nature, why should he be sorry? Who cursed man to be born a sinner?
See, you have folks here like Biblicist who say David HAD to sin. He was born with a sin nature, and EVERYTHING he did was sin, even when he did what outwardly appeared to be good, it was sin.
David didn't choose this, neither did you or I. We were all born this way.
Is that what you believe David is saying in verse 5?
I don't know how old you are, but way back in the 60's a comedian named Flip Wilson created a character that always blamed the devil. Her famous line was "the devil made me do it".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaiLcwHXB4
No, if you are going to take verse 3 literally, then you ought to take the verses that follow verse 3 literally also.
Well... you just said Psalm 51:3 should be taken literally. And 4 and 5 come right after that with a CONTINUED acknowledgement of his sinfulness and sin nature!
We all use figures of speech and have no trouble understanding what they mean:I beg your pardon, did you read verse 1?
Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
This is one reason this Psalm should not be taken literally, do you really believe David sinned against God only? Did not David sin against Uriah, Bathsheba's husband? Did not David sin against his wife and his family, and his nation?
This Psalm is not to be taken literally, you cannot wash away a person's sins with hyssop.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Do you believe God literally broke David's bones?
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
It is clear David is using figurative language here that should not be taken literally. So there is no way verse 5 should be interpreted to teach that all men are born sinners.
You cry like a baby; laugh like a hyena; move like a snail; waddle like a duck, are as blind as a bat, etc. Those are all similes.
An example of a metaphor is Jesus saying: "I am the door."
Are figures of speech hard for you to understand? Do they change the meaning of the Psalm? NO.
What does is blaming one's mother for something she didn't do!
If I were confessing my sin to God, the last thing I would do is blame my mother, but you seem intent on forcing this meaning into Psalm 51:3. Amazing!! And unheard of (until I heard it from you).
We all use figures of speech and have no trouble understanding what they mean:
You cry like a baby; laugh like a hyena; move like a snail; waddle like a duck, are as blind as a bat, etc. Those are all similes.
An example of a metaphor is Jesus saying: "I am the door."
Are figures of speech hard for you to understand? Do they change the meaning of the Psalm? NO.
What does is blaming one's mother for something she didn't do!
If I were confessing my sin to God, the last thing I would do is blame my mother, but you seem intent on forcing this meaning into Psalm 51:3. Amazing!! And unheard of (until I heard it from you).
YOU are the one claiming that David is teaching Original Sin in verse 5. You believe all men are born with a sin nature and MUST sin. That is an EXCUSE sir. It would be completely out of context in David's confession to speak of Original Sin.
And all you have to do is substitute words and it is plain verse 5 is speaking about his mother, not himself.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
5 Behold, I was beaten in anger; and in wrath did my mother chastise me.
Again, sustitute words for shapen, iniquity, sin, and conceive and it is absolutely obvious this verse is describing the actions of David's mother, not David.
Now, I don't know exactly what was wrong in David's family, but because of his mother he was treated as the black sheep of the family. When Samuel came and asked Jesse to present his sons at the feast, TWICE Jesse refused to present David. When Samuel persisted, it was found that David was out keeping the sheep like a servant, while all his brothers were invited to the feast. For some reason, David was treated very poorly by his father and brothers.
And it is probably not a stretch to believe David grew up feeling inferior, and maybe even a little guilty because of his mother. And this is what I believe David is expressing in Psalm 51. He actually had fulfilled what his family had always told him, that he was a BUM. He was not worthy of the family name, and certainly not worthy to come to the feast with the great prophet Samuel.
But David is not teaching that all men inherit Adam's sin or sin nature. That IS a stretch.
David is mourning over sin; confessing his sin; repenting of his sin; BUT NOT TEACHING ABOUT SIN!!YOU are the one claiming that David is teaching Original Sin in verse 5. You believe all men are born with a sin nature and MUST sin. That is an EXCUSE sir. It would be completely out of context in David's confession to speak of Original Sin.
Yes, all men are born with a sin nature. This has been an orthodox teaching of Christianity throughout the centuries. Your belief is outside of orthodox Christianity.
Man's sinful nature doesn't give man an excuse to sin. Why do you say that? Man is responsible for his sin; but he does has a sin nature which makes him prone to sin. Why did you have to teach your children to tell the truth; not to sin; not to do evil. If your perception of the sin nature is correct then you should have been able to teach them properly to live lives of sinful perfection. You have failed in not doing so. If you are not living a life of sinless perfection, you have failed. There is no excuse. What is your excuse?
Your own words condemn you.
Your substitutions don't work. There is a big difference between the verbs chastise and conceive.And all you have to do is substitute words and it is plain verse 5 is speaking about his mother, not himself.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
5 Behold, I was beaten in anger; and in wrath did my mother chastise me.
Again, sustitute words for shapen, iniquity, sin, and conceive and it is absolutely obvious this verse is describing the actions of David's mother, not David.
There was nothing wrong in David's family. Your accusations are asinine to put it mildly. If there had been anything wrong then it would have been wrong for God to say this:Now, I don't know exactly what was wrong in David's family, but because of his mother he was treated as the black sheep of the family. When Samuel came and asked Jesse to present his sons at the feast, TWICE Jesse refused to present David. When Samuel persisted, it was found that David was out keeping the sheep like a servant, while all his brothers were invited to the feast. For some reason, David was treated very poorly by his father and brothers.
Psalms 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
David is the "firstborn" in God's sight. The word means "pre-eminent." And so he was, the "pre-eminent one" among his family. He was the youngest, perhaps a few years younger than the rest of his brothers. Read the complete story of David and you see that his brothers were proud and arrogant (not the qualities that the Lord wanted in a king). The humble one was the youngest one, still out in the field. He wasn't the tallest, but no doubt the strongest, both in character and in might.
Your philosophy about David is absolutely wrong.
Are you a Freudian. Perhaps you read too much of his books. You need to read more of the Bible and less of psychology.And it is probably not a stretch to believe David grew up feeling inferior, and maybe even a little guilty because of his mother.
Here is what the Bible says of David:
1 Samuel 17:34 And David said unto Saul, Thy servant kept his father's sheep, and there came a lion, and a bear, and took a lamb out of the flock:
35 And I went out after him, and smote him, and delivered it out of his mouth: and when he arose against me, I caught him by his beard, and smote him, and slew him.
36 Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.
As a youth David delivered his lamb from a lion and then from a bear.
You have him pictured as a weak boy, feeling inferior, having guilty feelings of his mother, etc. What garbage is this that you write.
God said of David that he could not build the Temple because he was a mighty man of war and had blood on his hands. It does not sound like one who went around feeling sorry for himself and inferior. David was a man of war.
You have him pinned as weak, timid, inferior, afraid of his own mother!!
Amazing how one can twist the scriptures so!
David expresses nothing less than his own sinfulness. His mother never enters into this picture. Neither does Bathsheba. You were wrong in your attempt to point that out in a previous post. She is not referred to in this psalm. David expresses his own sorrow and repentance before God; his need to restore his fellowship with God, and that is all. He doesn't try to hang his sin on his mother. What a terrible thought and accusation!And this is what I believe David is expressing in Psalm 51. He actually had fulfilled what his family had always told him, that he was a BUM. He was not worthy of the family name, and certainly not worthy to come to the feast with the great prophet Samuel.
He doesn't teach it. He states it of himself that his nature is so sinful, sinful from his conception onward, there is nothing good in him, etc. He is confessing how sinful a person he is before God.But David is not teaching that all men inherit Adam's sin or sin nature. That IS a stretch.
Paul does the same thing. He says:
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1. I am the chief of all sinners.
2. I am the least of all the apostles.
3. I am not fit to be called an apostle.
Paul continued to humble himself before God, as David was doing.
David never brought his mother nor Bathsheba into his prayer of repentance. Paul would never do anything similar either.